Loghaine was right (spoilers)

[Still]

The king was a glory-seeking, child-like, literal dictator and likely didn't listen to Loghaine or wouldn't have anyway. He got tons of people killed and Duncan didn't accurately read the situation. Would you follow a childish fool into battle and lose your entire life so he can have an adventure like in the stories? As my character is progressing through the game, I find myself supporting Loghaine the more I think about it--or at the very least understanding why he did what he did. The king was a dipwad and Duncan was a dipwad too--he was one dimensional in his understanding of politics and paid the price for it. Duncan also straight up murdered a dude who wouldn't do the joining ritual because he had a wife and kid.

[ADEC Inc]

Maybe you should have waited until you knew the story before making this topic. Then again, it sounds like you didn't pay much attention during the intro anyway.

[fauxpas]

Yep, not worth my time since the OP can't be bothered to understand the lore.

[Still]

Duncan is a straight up murderer and ya'll are jumping through hoops to justify it. He left a wife and daugher without a father for no reason. The world would probably be better off if they knew how to stop the darkspawn, ie: knew the joining ritual. And the king (I can't be bothered to remember his name. Cailin or something?) is a turd who wasted many lives. It's obvious. Loghaine is a POS but what else is there to do in that situation. Either resign or do what you can to fix it. If the king was stronger, Loghaine wouldn't even be around.

[Still]

Ya'll over here justifying murder and on the side of an incompetent douchebag who threw away hundreds or thousands of lives so he could be a storybook hero and who can't tell friend from foe. Not exactly a strong position to have.

[Still]

And your main argument seems to be "learn the lore." Sorry can't play games for 10k hours like you seem to be doing rofl. Also not a strong argument. Sorry haven't been convinced. Loghaine is a POS but so is King Calin or wahtever the ♥♥♥♥ his name is. And so is Duncan. Duncan took my character against her will and then killed 2 people against their will right in front of me. And then he buddied up with the king and then got his ass killed too.

[owen8964]

The characterisations can be a bit clunky at times - a problem for many games - but I think Cailan is meant to be the perfect knight, sans peur et sans reproche. He is the sacrificial lamb doing what is right and dying for his people. It's positively Arthurian! Look how we see him in the dlc. If that's not meant to echo the Crucifixion then I'm a womble! :)

[ADEC Inc]

Your argument is fully backwards as Loghain engineered the entire battle plan specifically to kill Cailan. It had nothing to do with Cailan's leadership whatsoever.

[maVRoyal]

There is a thing i do not see in here but should be mentioned on why Loghain did what he did..
those who have read the book ( The Stolen throne ), would instantly notice that the whole turning back on Cailan by Loghain has been very thing that cailan said him to do.
In short. During last years of war against Orlesians where Cailan and Loghain has been starting to win, yet during one of battles they lost huge majority of their army because Loghain and Rowan found out about kidnapping of Cailan who was standing behind the lines. They went on and rescued him but at the cost of army which has been routed with minimal orlesian losses. Cailan was devestated, said that next time they should make sure to leave him and lead the battle to win, to rescue the soldiers.

Loghain left him....to rescue the soldiers, wait out the storm.
That is has been a wrong thing to do against the blight though is a different mater.

[ADEC Inc]

maVRoyal a écrit :

Loghain left him....to rescue the soldiers, wait out the storm.

He planned to abandon him from the start. The plan to send Cailan in first was Loghain's. He had his own men in the Tower of Ishal originally before Cailan insisted on sending the wardens to light the beacon. He only agreed because it would have been more suspicious to argue the point.

He only spared his own soldiers so he could march them to Denerim and take control, where he threw away several of their lives in a useless civil war with the bannorn.

[Warlock]

maVRoyal a écrit :

There is a thing i do not see in here but should be mentioned on why Loghain did what he did..
those who have read the book ( The Stolen throne ), would instantly notice that the whole turning back on Cailan by Loghain has been very thing that cailan said him to do.
In short. During last years of war against Orlesians where Cailan and Loghain has been starting to win, yet during one of battles they lost huge majority of their army because Loghain and Rowan found out about kidnapping of Cailan who was standing behind the lines. They went on and rescued him but at the cost of army which has been routed with minimal orlesian losses. Cailan was devestated, said that next time they should make sure to leave him and lead the battle to win, to rescue the soldiers.

Loghain left him....to rescue the soldiers, wait out the storm.
That is has been a wrong thing to do against the blight though is a different mater.

Too bad it's part of the comics and not the game, not everyone has opportunity to buy and read the novels based on game. That mention would've been interesting in game, if Anora mentioned that this happened back when there was war with Orlais.

[Warlock]

ADEC Inc a écrit :

maVRoyal a écrit :

Loghain left him....to rescue the soldiers, wait out the storm.

He planned to abandon him from the start. The plan to send Cailan in first was Loghain's. He had his own men in the Tower of Ishal originally before Cailan insisted on sending the wardens to light the beacon. He only agreed because it would have been more suspicious to argue the point.

He only spared his own soldiers so he could march them to Denerim and take control, where he threw away several of their lives in a useless civil war with the bannorn.

I think if Wardens never successfully lit the pyre at top of the tower, Loghain's plan would've worked as in there wouldn't be civil war as many in army would speak out how the original plan failed. Of course, the plan went as it did and heroes did lit the signal and many Loghain apologists in-game try to cope with the fact Loghain got branded traitor.

One thing I don't know if there is answer to or not is how Darkspawn got into tower, it's something Alistair points out as well. Loghain definitely didn't work with Darkspawn, but maybe he knew about the underground tunnels beneath tower that might have been breached and wanted this to be obstacle for the Wardens.

[BoodlyBoost]

NO, the guy who dismissed the Blight as a lesser threat than that of Orlais, was most definitely NOT RIGHT.

[fauxpas]

Knight of Revan a écrit :

ADEC Inc a écrit :

He planned to abandon him from the start. The plan to send Cailan in first was Loghain's. He had his own men in the Tower of Ishal originally before Cailan insisted on sending the wardens to light the beacon. He only agreed because it would have been more suspicious to argue the point.

He only spared his own soldiers so he could march them to Denerim and take control, where he threw away several of their lives in a useless civil war with the bannorn.

I think if Wardens never successfully lit the pyre at top of the tower, Loghain's plan would've worked as in there wouldn't be civil war as many in army would speak out how the original plan failed. Of course, the plan went as it did and heroes did lit the signal and many Loghain apologists in-game try to cope with the fact Loghain got branded traitor.

One thing I don't know if there is answer to or not is how Darkspawn got into tower, it's something Alistair points out as well. Loghain definitely didn't work with Darkspawn, but maybe he knew about the underground tunnels beneath tower that might have been breached and wanted this to be obstacle for the Wardens.

He might not have worked with the Darkspawn, but I think its a safe bet that he knew about the tunnels but didn't care since he never intended on lighting the fires.

[Warlock]

My thought was exact, he knew that the Tower defense was flawed and Darkspawn troops could use tunnels to break from underground and then overrun it. I never spared Loghain, so I never really asked him if he did or didn't plan out the Tower to be taken by horde, but it obviously would have played him on hand. When pyre was lit and Loghain decided to still retreat he already declared war on Bannorn because all nobles present at battle now knew he abandoned King. Cailan's ain't exactly greatest King, but I wouldn't call him the worst despite the flaws. He obviously recognized Darkspawn threat and believed Wardens were key to stopping it, but if he fought against Orlais too, he really did the wrong thing trying to form alliance with former enemy. More so, he argued with Loghain about it even though he might have guessed Mac Tir would never agree to it, neither would half of Ferelden that probably still hated Orlais.

[that guy]

maVRoyal a écrit :

Cailan was devestated, said that next time they should make sure to leave him and lead the battle to win, to rescue the soldiers.

I haven't read the book/comic/whatever, but from what you're saying, they were still at war with Orlais. Did you mix up Cailan with Maric (his father)?

IIRC, the war with Orlais ended before or at the beginning of the Dragon Age. Cailan was only born afterwards.

@OP
Your complaints against Cailan seem to be his personality and that he fought the darkspawn? I don't see why you think defending against the Blight is a bad thing. Do you want the darkspawn to overrun Ferelden?

Do you just not agree to the battle that got so many people killed? Loghain was the one who planned that battle. Besides, it was a defensive battle. It was either fight or retreat. It's not as though they could tell the darkspawn they don't want to fight, so please don't attack...

IIRC, Cailan wanted to wait for Orlesian reinforcements, but Loghain insisted that the forces they had were enough. If there had been strong opposition (Duncan only offered token resistance), perhaps Cailan would have retreated.

As for his personality, he does seem like a man-child. Maybe it was an act, maybe not. However, once you see enough of the story, you learn that Cailan was actually more of a figurehead. Anora, Loghain's daughter and Cailan's wife, was the one who did the actual ruling of the country. Everyone has nothing but praises for her, so there aren't many complaints on Cailan's reign. Basically, his personality doesn't affect anything since someone else does the actual ruling.

Regarding Duncan, he is very much an "ends justify the means" kind of guy. I don't like him much either. However, if you think about it, recruiting you is actually saving you in everything except the human noble origin.

Magi - recruitment saves you from the Templars
City Elf - recruitment saves you from Vaughn's vengeance
Dalish Elf - recruitment saves you from dying of the taint
Dwarf Commoner - recruitment saves you from the carta killing you and dwarven bureaucracy imprisoning/executing/exiling you
Dwarf Noble - you voluntarily join to survive the Deep Roads