Loghaine was right (spoilers)

[Still]

The king was a glory-seeking, child-like, literal dictator and likely didn't listen to Loghaine or wouldn't have anyway. He got tons of people killed and Duncan didn't accurately read the situation. Would you follow a childish fool into battle and lose your entire life so he can have an adventure like in the stories? As my character is progressing through the game, I find myself supporting Loghaine the more I think about it--or at the very least understanding why he did what he did. The king was a dipwad and Duncan was a dipwad too--he was one dimensional in his understanding of politics and paid the price for it. Duncan also straight up murdered a dude who wouldn't do the joining ritual because he had a wife and kid.

[Warlock]

Well, it's complicated situation. Obviously, Loghain isn't Paragon of Virtue considering his right hand man is Rendon Howe, but I'm no fan of Cailan or Duncan either.

Orlais can never be trusted and putting aside the tensions caused by last war was a mistake on Cailan's part, one of the reasons why Loghain enacted a scheme to take over Ferelden in first place.

So in summary, even if Loghain's original plan succeeded, the beacon was never lit and all believed GWs failed then he would lead Ferelden for a short while until Archdemon shows up. Then, even if the dragon was slain his soul would travel to another Darkspawn and Ferelden would fall to the horde. Loghain wouldn't succeed if he had his plan work completely.

[fauxpas]

You're not wrong about the man-child king, but what Loghain did was a callous power grab, nothing more so he deserves having his head separated from his neck.

[Warlock]

Yeah, I can't bring myself to spare him. He had MC and the team on the run, living in the woods. Alistair's right that time in the Landsmeet, the General's tantrum caused biggest crisis in Ferelden during the Blight. It's probably best thing to just get rid of Mac Tirs entirely, Anora had her chances as a Queen, but she never used it. Let Alistair rule under uncle's guidance or have Human Noble as Chancellor or Queen control Alistair after installing him on a throne.

[Ilja]

If Alistair is hardened, then Queen is hardly in full control, as she now doubt wanted to be.

She is a tricky one.

I often made that choice, because Alistair is a good man and would prove to be a good ruler - even if he wouldn't be the real king.

And yet, I would have loved to see Loghain to live. He is tactical genius and strong on the battle field, so it felt like a complete waste to let him go. I wouldn't leave Ferelden just for Anora's rule. She is... well, it would be wrong to say that she is a "daughter of his father", because at least Loghain had Ferelden's best interest in heart (if not in his brains), but Anora feels more compelled to keep her line on the throne.

[that guy]

Duncan had misgivings about Cailan's handling of the Blight. He felt that it wasn't being taken seriously enough. However, he cannot overrule his king.

Cailan was a glory seeking man-child, but I don't know that he is a dictator. He'd asked for reinforcements from Orlais but Loghain disagreed.

Loghain was suspicious about the Orlesians and was adamant that Ferelden could handle the darkspawn on their own.

As it is, the Orlesians never crossed the border so we don't know whether or not they had any ulterior motives. Since Loghain never followed through on the flanking attack, we don't know if they could have defeated the darkspawn forces at Ostagar.

What we do know is that even if they won at Ostagar, the Blight would have continued because the Archdemon was not defeated.

Loghain decided that treason and regicide along with massive casualties and an unchecked Blight was a worthy sacrifice to prevent a possible second Orlesian occupation. Obviously ambition played a role as well or else he would have just assassinated Cailan to prevent the Orlesian reinforcements instead of doing what he did.

[fauxpas]

Nah, he couldn't have gotten away with an assassination, he needed to ensure the houses that would oppose him had thier armies weakened as well.

[Furry Wrecking Crew]

Originally posted by tanjo:

The king was a glory-seeking, child-like, literal dictator and likely didn't listen to Loghaine or wouldn't have anyway. He got tons of people killed and Duncan didn't accurately read the situation. Would you follow a childish fool into battle and lose your entire life so he can have an adventure like in the stories? As my character is progressing through the game, I find myself supporting Loghaine the more I think about it--or at the very least understanding why he did what he did. The king was a dipwad and Duncan was a dipwad too--he was one dimensional in his understanding of politics and paid the price for it. Duncan also straight up murdered a dude who wouldn't do the joining ritual because he had a wife and kid.

Way off. Loggy is the evil glory seeker, the King was a good dude. Loghain essentially murdered a bunch of people for politics; like a terrorist, Putin-esque.

[Warlock]

Cailan's positive traits are politeness, being diplomat and forgiving, but it's a political mask he is wearing. Deep inside, he wants to be a hero of legends and left politics to his wife. Furthermore he couldn't conceive a child and it's up to debate if it's Cailan or Anora who is impotent.
Loghain's started off as a rebel turned hero after victory in the independence war. I believe he still held grudge over Orlais, he never forgave them and developed paranoia that Empress could try to reoccupy Ferelden or that Orlesian Grey Wardens are Orlesian spies. I doubt he sought glory or power he already had, he simply hated Orlais and never trusted Grey Wardens. Though, I won't deny his actions are despicable and I let him die all the time, but nonetheless Loghain's motives are understandable.

[that guy]

Originally posted by fauxpas:

Nah, he couldn't have gotten away with an assassination, he needed to ensure the houses that would oppose him had thier armies weakened as well.

That's my point. He wouldn't need to weaken the other houses if it wasn't for the fact that he was ambitious for the throne. If his only concern was the Orlesians, then it wouldn't matter how Cailan died.

[ADEC Inc]

Cailan was naive but he died fighting to save everyone. Loghain very nearly handed Ferelden to the darkspawn out of his own paranoia and megalomania.

Duncan knew that if knowledge of the joining ritual became public, there would be no more recruits, and he knew that the wardens were necessary to stop the blight. If Duncan hadn't killed Jory, he would've died anyway from Loghain's betrayal, along with all the other family men in that army.

[Warlock]

Originally posted by ADEC Inc:

Cailan was naive but he died fighting to save everyone. Loghain very nearly handed Ferelden to the darkspawn out of his own paranoia and megalomania.

Duncan knew that if knowledge of the joining ritual became public, there would be no more recruits, and he knew that the wardens were necessary to stop the blight. If Duncan hadn't killed Jory, he would've died anyway from Loghain's betrayal, along with all the other family men in that army.

Are you so sure of that? Grey Wardens have power to conscript anyone they want, lots of pickings in jails and impoverished streets of the cities. Their only purpose is to slay archdemon so the soul won't travel to another Darkspawn minion, and sensing the darkspawn presence, but a lesser Darkspawn like Hurlock or Genlock can be killed by average Fereldan. I think everyone has right to be mad that the ritual turns you into a ghoul.

[Still]

Originally posted by ADEC Inc:

Cailan was naive but he died fighting to save everyone. Loghain very nearly handed Ferelden to the darkspawn out of his own paranoia and megalomania.

I think you're a bit backwards there. Cailan died saving no one. In fact, all of his men were killed and the dark spawn threat remained. He didn't understand his own political situation and was hung up on adventure tales. His entire campaign was a net loss. Were his intentions good? Well, it depends on how you define good. I don't think parading off to war in search of adventure and becoming a legend without taking the time or effort to understand the actual situation is good. I think it's woefully ignorant and ultimately his fault and his own doing.

Loghain was a POS, but at least the men under his command lived. They are probably still alive right now, to this day, and--look--Ferelden was saved afterall. So Cailan died for no reason and got a lot of men killed because he was ignorant and inept.

Originally posted by ADEC Inc:

Duncan knew that if knowledge of the joining ritual became public, there would be no more recruits, and he knew that the wardens were necessary to stop the blight. If Duncan hadn't killed Jory, he would've died anyway from Loghain's betrayal, along with all the other family men in that army.

It's also interesting to me that the player cannot refuse Duncan. As a wood elf, I tried--and he demanded I join and threatened to drag me off in order to make it happen. Jory was doomed the moment Duncan decided he wanted Jory. Jory was literally better off running from the dark spawn. And you don't know that "there would be no more recruits" if the joining ritual became public--it's just speculation. For all we know, telling everyone how to defeat the dark spawn could result in more people doing the ritual as a last resort and thus more "Grey Wardens" or the end to the Grey Wardens and a new army of dark-spawn-immune soldiers. Regardless, that's no justification to murder a man and leave his wife and child without a father. I mean, fkn, just let the dark spawn in if we're going to live like that. Can't get much worse than being murdered by a sanctimonious dude with his head up his own ass who tries to be Liam Neason.

[Still]

And now that I think about it, the entire premise of "let's recruit you for the Grey Wardens but not tell you about this deadly joining ritual until we have you where you want you and then murder you if you refuse" is really messed up. I mean, it's basically a cult that you didn't ask to join, that you can't leave, and that has a very high chance of killing you--run by a man who is just a normal dude really. Duncan is not a genius or a divine savior. He's just another dude. It puts Alistair in another light. He's Duncan's victim. He's an orphan who ended up listening to the people around him and thus has no wife, no kids, no family, etc. He's a tool now. He was sent off to be a templar by Arl Eamon as well against his will. He has had very little self-determination in his life. He doesn't even try to take command after Duncan dies, and instead allows the player to determine his fate. He's basically a tool with no will of his own. He is a lifelong victim of abuse.

I think the wood elf start is the best of them all because at least they understand the dangerous, duplicitous nature of the world they live in. Give me the forest and freedom rather than these hypocrites who are running this ♥♥♥♥ show.

[Zeetarb]

Everyone calls Cailan naive in-game, but he probably shows one of the best understandings of the seriousness of the situation and everything going on around him. He knows they have to do something where they are to stop the lands being overrun, and if Arl Eamon hadn't been poisoned his army would be there as well - an army that formed a large part of the in the end successful force. If they'd slowed the advance there, it gives time for the warden reinforcements to arrive as well and may have saved most of the land that ends up devastated.

Likewise he trusted that the blight was serious enough to be worth the risk of an Orlesian occupation - Loghain and others were the naive one's who thought it was the lesser risk; likely because they were comparing something they lived through to something they hadn't.

The stuff around the battles like the stories, part of him felt that way, but the other part is you need to be confident and exuberant in that situation, lest your armies morale waver before the battle.

[ADEC Inc]

Originally posted by Knight of Revan:

Are you so sure of that? Grey Wardens have power to conscript anyone they want, lots of pickings in jails and impoverished streets of the cities.

They only have power of conscription because they're allowed it. What do you think happens to that power if the world learns that blood magic is involved, and becoming ghouls as you said?

Originally posted by tanjo:

Cailan died saving no one. In fact, all of his men were killed and the dark spawn threat remained. He didn't understand his own political situation and was hung up on adventure tales.

I didn't say he succeeded, but he died trying. He didn't understand that he would be betrayed by one of his own heroes and father-in-law while fighting to stop a threat far greater than Orlais ever could be.

Loghain was a POS, but at least the men under his command lived. They are probably still alive right now, to this day, and--look--Ferelden was saved afterall. So Cailan died for no reason and got a lot of men killed because he was ignorant and inept.

Loads of his men died in a pointless civil war when he tried to seize power and the banns refused him. Loads more died when the Blight reached Denerim itself because he sabotaged the effort to stop it at the Korcari Wilds. Ferelden was saved in spite of everything Loghain did, not thanks to him in any way. Cailan indeed died for no reason. Every Ferelden warden was present at the battle, and they might have won the day if they had the support they were promised.

Jory was doomed the moment Duncan decided he wanted Jory. Jory was literally better off running from the dark spawn. And you don't know that "there would be no more recruits" if the joining ritual became public--it's just speculation. For all we know, telling everyone how to defeat the dark spawn could result in more people doing the ritual as a last resort and thus more "Grey Wardens" or the end to the Grey Wardens and a new army of dark-spawn-immune soldiers. Regardless, that's no justification to murder a man and leave his wife and child without a father. I mean, fkn, just let the dark spawn in if we're going to live like that. Can't get much worse than being murdered by a sanctimonious dude with his head up his own ass who tries to be Liam Neason.

Jory would've been doomed anyway if allowed to run. The darkspawn were all over the Wilds. Your party only escapes thanks to Flemeth's intervention. Jory's only hope would have been to stay and fight with the rest of the army, and Loghain's betrayal still would have gotten him killed then.

If the world knew about the Joining, the Chantry would never allow the Wardens to go on practicing blood magic, so there would indeed be no new recruits. The Wardens' justification has always been "anything to stop the Blight." That's why they're called Grey after all.