Leliana useless as a archer?

[bstangeby]

I had a game earlier where instead of Leliana as a archer skilled her up in dual weapons. Think at the end she had 10 % of total damage done by party.
In current game thought okay let her go archer. More than half way into game. Redcliffe, Circle, Orzammar, 3 dlc done, most companions quest done except Wynne, Morrigan and Zefran. Leliana equipped with the bow you get from her personal quest. Leliana and Zefran both lvl up to 4 in lockpicking so can change which rouge to take out on mission. Damage done by Leliana with her bow only 4% and 56 kills. Zefran using dual weapons have damage done at 9% and 188 kills. My warrior of course are the greatest with 35% and 466 kills. So are bows not the best choice to go with?

[Ilja]

Leliana is very effective with bow. Statics screen only tells part of the truth, because ranged characters will always have less total kills and damage than melee characters.

This is because how threat works. It is based on damage, talents and distance to enemy. Ranged character chip life from enemies, but threat keeps most melee enemies near to melee characters, who are finishing them off, getting high numbers of total kills and damage.

Of course it also depends on how you are using Leliana. I gave her high DEX, but also high CUN. She used Aim all the time, if nothing else in her tactics screen was taking over. She did a horrible damage, with high armor piercing damage. I had to set her a Stealth condition, because otherwise enemies would engage her in melee, due to heavy number of damage she was causing. Values were high enough for them to break away from Alistair's talents that were meant to gather enemies around him.

[biogoo]

Bows are quite weak, but if you have the DLC, the (bugged) archery gauntlets in Return to Ostagar can fix that. Archery is very handy for the AoE stun arrow skill you eventually get, but it cannot compete in damage with backstabbing at all. The advantage of archery is that you don't get hit by a dragon's tail :p

[bstangeby]

Have Leliana skilled up most in archery. Only missing two. And picked ranger as her second speciality. I presume damage done by wolf is still credited Leliana? Zefran picked duelist.
And just realized something. If you pick rouge as your main caracter skill can have 3 rangers in you group. That would be overkill controlling 7.

[Vashra]

Archery is gimped a.f. in this game...however....

1. Her damage stats change radically if you control her to put her onto some mob the rest of the party *isn't* fighting. I use her to shred other ranged attackers, or to put arrows into the backs of some other mob. If she pulls aggro from her target, she's either trading ranged shots or she's got Dirty Fighting and can reposition (or just stand right there and fire into his face). In a big fight, Leliana can *solo* kill 2-3 mobs while the party handles the Elite/Boss. Keep an eye to manage her aggro, use someone's ability now and then for crowd control, and make sure she's either getting healed or popping potions in tactics. Other than giving her a new target specific to your unique crowd control situation and the current fight, she'll pretty much play herself.

2. I hear many arguments about this, but the *KEY* stat for rogues is CUNNING. It overpowers dex by a mile.

Armor penetration is based on cunning. Maxed cunning can turn plate into paper.

Tainted blade gives a humongous dmg bonus based on cunning (guess that doesn't matter for Leliana, but still.)

Atk, dmg and crit bonuses of Song of Courage are *all* based on cunning.

Another thing people miss? Leliana's distraction, upset balance, below the belt, pinning shot, shattering shot, etc are based on *cunning*.

You need enough Dexterity to equip your bow, have some decent basic attack/defense, and buy some of your talents in the first place. I cap Leliana's dex at around 35 and dump the rest into Cunning.

Lockpicking:

4 Deft hands and 11 cunning (open any lock in the game, except maybe that one buggy chest in the Circle Tower.)

3 Deft hands and 36 cunning

2 Deft hands and 61 cunning (usually not doable if you actually want to get everywhere early on unless you are willing to go back and pop chests later in old areas, may mess with some quest doors, I don't remember, but I remember it being a PITA so I go ahead and buy the 3rd slot).

It's been a long time since I bothered to put 4 levels of lock-pop on any rogue.

Haste and Swift Salve are *bugged* in the vanilla game (not sure if Qwinn's or Dain's fixes apply to these bugs) and will *increase* rather than decrease an archer's speed. So don't use those thinking they will help. They won't. (Ref: https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Bugs_(Origins)#Ranged_attack_speed_bug)

Bow damage calculation is 50 dex/50 str, just like daggers. This means Lethality should apply to bows. There's debate on that point, but I like to know that Leliana can switch to daggers and be pretty mean on a whim, she's just lacking most if not all DW talents. Also...while bow shots cannot backstab, they *can* flank. Combat Movement applies to archer rogues.

I got most of my archer strategy from here (https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Archery_(strategy))

As you can see, it's generally better NOT to concentrate on special abilities with bows. Counter-intuitive, but here we are.

[Ilja]

Vashra původně napsal:

2. I hear many arguments about this, but the *KEY* stat for rogues is CUNNING. It overpowers dex by a mile.

Let me clarify this a bit, because while this is true, part of the information around Internet is slightly misleading.

And this is not actually targeted at your reply. I am generally opening this, because game seems to have plenty of new players.

Bioware managed to break DEX damage output in one of the patches. It is fixed in up to date game here in Steam (as it is in GOG and Origin as well.) However, people explained over and over again how DEX is now an attribute fitting only for talent requirements. That "truth" still seems to linger around of several forums and replies.

DEX output is indeed fixed and it contributes as expected.

That said, what Vashra wrote is also true. Leliana benefits from high DEX, but she also benefits from high CUN. Cunning is the most important talent for melee rogue. Ranged rogues benefit from it as well, in form of Stealth (to clear threat) and armor penetration that was mentioned above.

Pure DEX rogue archers are devastating against low armored masses, but they fall short against heavily armored ones. DEX is of course required to hit in the first place, because CUN does not have any effect on attack success.

TL;DR Leliana needs high DEX to hit enemies, but not overly high. She needs Cunning for AP, Stealth (if used) and Bard songs (if used - and I recommend using the second song quite a lot.)

She might benefit from minor Willpower bonuses and few points of STR to use best possible leather gears, but otherwise it's just DEX and CUN for her.

That said... there are plenty of builds available for her as well, so don't get stuck on what was written above. When you guys learn mechanisms, then feel free to experience with companion builds. They can get really interesting.

[ADEC Inc]

Archery kind of underperforms until Awakening, when it becomes disgusting with the new Accuracy modal.

[Dunde]

ADEC Inc původně napsal:

Archery kind of underperforms until Awakening, when it becomes disgusting with the new Accuracy modal.

All DEX + Accuracy = Instant killer

[Vashra]

Ilja původně napsal:

Vashra původně napsal:

2. I hear many arguments about this, but the *KEY* stat for rogues is CUNNING. It overpowers dex by a mile.

Let me clarify this a bit, because while this is true, part of the information around Internet is slightly misleading.

And this is not actually targeted at your reply. I am generally opening this, because game seems to have plenty of new players.

Bioware managed to break DEX damage output in one of the patches. It is fixed in up to date game here in Steam (as it is in GOG and Origin as well.) However, people explained over and over again how DEX is now an attribute fitting only for talent requirements. That "truth" still seems to linger around of several forums and replies.

DEX output is indeed fixed and it contributes as expected.

That said, what Vashra wrote is also true. Leliana benefits from high DEX, but she also benefits from high CUN. Cunning is the most important talent for melee rogue. Ranged rogues benefit from it as well, in form of Stealth (to clear threat) and armor penetration that was mentioned above.

Pure DEX rogue archers are devastating against low armored masses, but they fall short against heavily armored ones. DEX is of course required to hit in the first place, because CUN does not have any effect on attack success.

TL;DR Leliana needs high DEX to hit enemies, but not overly high. She needs Cunning for AP, Stealth (if used) and Bard songs (if used - and I recommend using the second song quite a lot.)

She might benefit from minor Willpower bonuses and few points of STR to use best possible leather gears, but otherwise it's just DEX and CUN for her.

That said... there are plenty of builds available for her as well, so don't get stuck on what was written above. When you guys learn mechanisms, then feel free to experience with companion builds. They can get really interesting.

Agreed. I usually get Lel's strength up to 20 for the sake of armor equipping. You *can* gimp it a little (there are belts and rings and neck bits that add attributes), but I like to be able to gear up from nekkid without concern.

As I said, I usually max out her Dex at about 35. From there, ONLY because Lethality does work for archer points (tested) I know her damage calc on bows (or daggers) is .5Dex + .5CUN (formerly .5STR). Therefore, it doesn't strictly matter which side of that equation you dump into. By the time you have to decide about it, a solid percentage of your ememies are heavily armored. I might try seeing how she does if I go ahead and spend the point in lockpicking 4 and run her Dex and Cunning neck-and-neck for as long as possible though :)

I don't think I've ever put Evasion on her (manage yo' aggro!), but if you wanted you, she'd need 36 Dex for that I think. Because I really want to put that 4th lockpicking point anywhere else, but I can't live in a world with a chest I can't open, I'm partial to cunning over dexterity in just about all cases. Giving her 35-36 Dex also insures you can take her DW skills anywhere you might wish to take them.

A few Willpower points never hurt anyone, but I'm much more partial to putting Willpower on Zev because Momentum(tm). Lel usually makes due with the jacket o' stamina that I can't remember the name of right now (thing you get for finishing achievement in Leliana's Song) and some +sta/sta regen jewelry. I've never tried building Zev as an archer...seems it would be a waste of the build he has when you meet him, but I guess with a respec mod....

[The Dude]

biogoo původně napsal:

Bows are quite weak, but if you have the DLC, the (bugged) archery gauntlets in Return to Ostagar can fix that. Archery is very handy for the AoE stun arrow skill you eventually get, but it cannot compete in damage with backstabbing at all. The advantage of archery is that you don't get hit by a dragon's tail :p

Bow's are only weak if your dex is low.

With an exploitedly high dex your mage can 3-4 shot the high dragon and one shot every undead in the battle for Redcliffe even on the higher difficulties.

If you want to use an NPC as ranged, increase their dex.

[bstangeby]

I am sorry but I just dont see any damage done by Leliana with bows as described. In camp now after the Landsmeet she is at lvl 19. Strengt 22(so can use the Wade superior), Will 15 magic 15 cunning 22 con 15 dex 42. Her highest damage done is at 52. And I think that happened when I controlled her. She may had more damage done if took her out more on missions but I was jumping back and forth with Leliana and Zevran as my rouge. My main caracter equipped with Starfang have highest damage done at 94. Oghren using Ageless have highest damage at 90. Heck even Zevran as dual have highest damage at 72. I just dont see it during gameplay to justify using bows.
Will give it one more chance after done with current game. Create a human noble rouge with using only bows. Maybe a female and marry Alistar. Or a male. Recruit Loghain and marry Anora. Wonder what happens with Alistar then.

[boiling pie]

Don't judge only by damage per hit. Just as important is fast shooting (bow with rapid aim, repeater gloves from Ostagar DLC) and hitting with every shot (high attack).
She really shines in bossfights.

[bstangeby]

I guess you had to pick archery with your main caracter to really enjoy it. Arrow of slaying gave me 377 damage against the high dragon. Which gave me an achivement. But Sten ended up being credited with the kill. Next battle against Flemeth also saw some really high damage. But Oghren was credited with tath kill.

[briarroot]

boiling pie původně napsal:

Don't judge only by damage per hit. Just as important is fast shooting (bow with rapid aim, repeater gloves from Ostagar DLC) and hitting with every shot (high attack).
She really shines in bossfights.

Especially good for taking on mages who are using glyphs like Repulsion etc that your melee characters can't approach.

[Makatas]

Idk how you play, but for me once i got items/skills to raise her attack so she stop missing so often, she started doing tons of damage, when i decided to check for the first time she was 6k damage behind alistar. Right now she did more damage than alistar and is second biggest damage dealer in my team, after me ofc(fully dps mage)

[Awaken]

No, not at all. Make sure to keep Precise shot on at all times. Archery is a bit underpowered by default, but Precise shot allows for increased critical chance that makes a night & day difference, especially on higher levels, where an archer will be able to pump out critical hits with every single shot with this ability on.

Also her optimal build should be DEX & CUN focused. Level both attributes, and also level STR up to 21 to be able to equip higher-tier armors.