Male human noble Landsmeet outcome questions (SPOILERS UP THE WAZOO)

[Vashra]

I read on the Wiki for Landsmeet outcomes that if the male human noble warden lets Alistair kill Loghain and then the Warden has angled to marry Anora himself, then Alistair is automatically spared execution.

HOWEVER, the Wiki also says that if Alistair is hardened, then he will apparently assume the throne himself rather than let this happen.

So my question is this: Does Alistair assume the throne *and* imprison Anora so he can rule alone, or does he force a political marriage between himself and her, or does he let her and the Warden marry but she's stripped of her status as queen or what?

[Kurosu]

Ok this is obviously a spoiler post so I wont bother with filters .

It all depends on who kills Loghain. If Alistair kills him Anora refuses to mary the killer of her father. So if you want allistair to land the killing blow , forget about their marriage.

If its alistair that duels him he automatically kills him and if he is also hardered he makes a move for the throne.

They can still mary if its the warden that kills loghain or even you spare him ( but alistair will be mad at you).

You can mary Anora yourself but you need to be the one dueling Loghain otherwise Alistair will make a move for the throne himself.

The only scenario I have never tested is to duel Loghain wit hthe warden, let Alistair kill him AND try to mary Anora. But it should be possible.

[Vashra]

Yeah..those I have seen. I was just curious what happens if hardened Alistair gets in the middle of the planned Anora/Warden the way described above.

It sounds like what Alistair does if you try to marry Anora yourself but he has killed Loghain and he's hardened is take the throne and rule solo (cutting off your marriage to Anora). I guess I'll just play it out and see what happens.

I don't think you *can* duel Loghain with the warden *and* let Alistair kill him *and* marry Anora. If Alistair doesn't kill Loghain during the duel, the only other way he gets to kill him is by ordering Loghain's execution as his first *kingly* deed.

If *you* are in line to marry Anora instead of Alistair, then just sparing Loghain in the duel is enough to make Alistair quit everything and pretty much become a wandering drunk. I've had that ending.

[psychotron666]

I never liked Alistair so I like to spare loghain and make him a grey warden and let Alistair become a useless drunk like he was destined to be.

Loghain is actually not that bad of a guy. King calian was a douche bag who romanticized war from reading children's fairy tales and risks his army's life to go to a glorious war instead of waiting for back-up. Loghain with the information he had (not knowing it is a real blight) probably made the best choice for his army for that Battle. His idea wasn't to get a civil war, but wanted a united country to be able to combat the darkspawn if it was a blight. It would be better with an experienced war veteran ruling than some child who only cares about fantasy stories.


And he takes up his charge as a grey warden without much protest once you beat him.

[briarroot]

Publicado originalmente por psychotron666:

I
Loghain is actually not that bad of a guy.

I initially felt some sympathy for Loghain. After all, he vociferously tries to prevent King Cailan from standing in the front line with the Grey Wardens at Ostagar, and as the battle begins you can see a flicker of doubt and consternation pass across Cailan's face when he sees the size of the Darkspawn force arrayed against him.

However, as the plot unfolds Loghain's perfidy is revealed. It's not simply that he's trying to unite Ferelden, he's actively plotting to kill anyone who might present an obstacle to him seizing the throne for himself. The fact that his chief adviser is Arl Howe - a man without a single moral scruple - tells it all.

As for Cailan waiting for reinforcements, how could he? I agree that Cailan was recklessly underestimating the odds, but I blame Duncan for not being entirely honest with him. Duncan could sense the presence of the Archdemon and knew quite well that this was a true blight. Duncan sensed the size of the force approaching Ostagar and did not tell Cailan what he knew. And the thing is Cailan is already in a defensive position. He's not attacking the Darkspawn; they are attacking him. The only way to wait for reinforcements is to give up that position and withdraw northward toward Lothering, which does not appear (at least to my eyes) to be a defensible position.

There's no doubt that Cailan had a foolishly romantic view of war, but Loghain was treacherous and IMO undeserving of sympathy. Even if, after seeing the size of the Darkspawn force and recognizing that trying to save the King would be suicide, after the battle he could have allied himself with the Grey Wardens and Arl Eamon and rallied all of Ferelden to avenge the King. Instead he plotted to kill anyone who stood in his way.

[ADEC Inc]

Wait for backup? Loghain actively blocked any backup from crossing the border because of his paranoia. Then instead of aiding the retreat of the king's forces, just abandoned everyone to die and let darkspawn overrun half the country, causing more deaths and strengthening the blight. He wasn't lacking in information either. The blight and the archdemons are established history at this point and he chose to disbelieve it all.

And yeah, he agrees to become a warden because the only alternative is immediate execution for treason. He was so irrational he even turned on his own daughter at the end. What a great leader.

[Vashra]

Publicado originalmente por briarroot:

Publicado originalmente por psychotron666:

I
Loghain is actually not that bad of a guy.

I initially felt some sympathy for Loghain. After all, he vociferously tries to prevent King Cailan from standing in the front line with the Grey Wardens at Ostagar, and as the battle begins you can see a flicker of doubt and consternation pass across Cailan's face when he sees the size of the Darkspawn force arrayed against him.

There's no doubt that Cailan had a foolishly romantic view of war, but Loghain was treacherous and IMO undeserving of sympathy. Even if, after seeing the size of the Darkspawn force and recognizing that trying to save the King would be suicide, after the battle he could have allied himself with the Grey Wardens and Arl Eamon and rallied all of Ferelden to avenge the King. Instead he plotted to kill anyone who stood in his way.

Yeah...Duncan playing sly with the intel that it was, in fact, a Blight never made any sense to me from a writing standpoint. I'd have been fine with dialogue where he was like "It's a Blight" and folks were like "sure it is...sober up." But for *him* to have lines in Ostagar apparently wondering if it was really a blight or not didn't work for the backstory of sensing the demon.

Having said that, can someone explain to me how an army of several thousand on a hard march (I don't think the Arch Demon cares about morale or fatigue or whatever) didn't overtake the Warden and Alistair at Ferelden and kill them both? ;) That the Warden is able to bumble around and arrange all these treaties when you've got a HUGE invasion/occupation force that should be camped somewhere between Ostagar and the little the little square on the map where Lothering is/was makes not a lick of sense.

In any case, I pretty much agree with the assessment of Loghain as a rollicking douche nugget. He was so anti-wardens, I was really expecting a "big reveal" trope where he turned out to be straight up in league with the archdemon to be honest.

[briarroot]

One of my main gripes about the design of the plot is how forgotten the entire Darkspawn horde seems to be after Ostagar. I mean we, the players, can see the horde advancing across the map of Ferelden but our characters are invited to wander off on all sorts of irrelevant side-quests which have nothing to do with stopping them. As veteran game players, we understand that this kind of thing is there to level up and gather more XP and loot, but from a story standpoint it's positively ridiculous! What the devs should have done is that while there were various reports of Darkspawn raids here and there, they main horde should have disappeared for awhile and not have shown itself until the final stages of the game.

Imagine yourself as a rogue running around Denerim steallng stuff while the horde is advancing across the map of Ferelden. Where are you going to spend the gold you steal while the world is burning down around your ears? It makes no sense - as a story. As a game mechanic, it's typical. A bit disappointing, IMO.

[Vashra]

Publicado originalmente por briarroot:

One of my main gripes about the design of the plot is how forgotten the entire Darkspawn horde seems to be after Ostagar. I mean we, the players, can see the horde advancing across the map of Ferelden but our characters are invited to wander off on all sorts of irrelevant side-quests which have nothing to do with stopping them. As veteran game players, we understand that this kind of thing is there to level up and gather more XP and loot, but from a story standpoint it's positively ridiculous! What the devs should have done is that while there were various reports of Darkspawn raids here and there, they main horde should have disappeared for awhile and not have shown itself until the final stages of the game.

Imagine yourself as a rogue running around Denerim steallng stuff while the horde is advancing across the map of Ferelden. Where are you going to spend the gold you steal while the world is burning down around your ears? It makes no sense - as a story. As a game mechanic, it's typical. A bit disappointing, IMO.

This is a problem with most if not all games of this overall genre. Witcher, Elder Scrolls, Dark Souls, etc. I like how we're able to "return to Ostagar" without tripping over the. army. of. thousands. who. razed. Ostagar. That's...not how it should work ;)

I agree completely that they should have been able to write up side quests that at least made *some* sense to the main mission. A theft mission in Denerim to steal a fabled enchanted sword/armor/whatever out from under the Loghain-loyal noble's possession would be good. Running missions for the mages' collective in order to gain allies for the war would make sense, etc.