Install Steam
login
|
language
简体中文 (Simplified Chinese)
繁體中文 (Traditional Chinese)
日本語 (Japanese)
한국어 (Korean)
ไทย (Thai)
Български (Bulgarian)
Čeština (Czech)
Dansk (Danish)
Deutsch (German)
Español - España (Spanish - Spain)
Español - Latinoamérica (Spanish - Latin America)
Ελληνικά (Greek)
Français (French)
Italiano (Italian)
Bahasa Indonesia (Indonesian)
Magyar (Hungarian)
Nederlands (Dutch)
Norsk (Norwegian)
Polski (Polish)
Português (Portuguese - Portugal)
Português - Brasil (Portuguese - Brazil)
Română (Romanian)
Русский (Russian)
Suomi (Finnish)
Svenska (Swedish)
Türkçe (Turkish)
Tiếng Việt (Vietnamese)
Українська (Ukrainian)
Report a translation problem
Discussions Rules and Guidelines
Report this post
Alistair didn't betray you, you betrayed him and everything he believes in and wonder why he's upset?
And what Faux said is quite a good place to start and think Betrayer
[ Besides, they both suck since twohanded spec is superior to shield spec. ]
Just fyi he 100% did not do that.. he almost Doomed Fereldan (ie like a important country) that it...(because of his unfortunate over the top way of viewing things and fear) ... I mean there more to the world than that and likely even Orlais (also not the entire world) + blocked off wardens likely would have beaten it next.
Not to mention all as game shows needed was the 1 big baddie to die wouldn't matter if a nation fell.... neccecarily.
Any ways don't feel like bringing up another ancient debate up to many forums on it was just letting you know.
Nope, good take, you are the one who claims Alistair is one of your favorite characters but you've apparently never taken the time to understand what his core values are or looked at what his decisions would have been.
Alistair is not a pragmatic person (one of the main reasons he doesn't want to be in charge unless hardened), and anyone who tries to play as a pragmatic "do what has to be done no matter the cost" Warden should not be the least bit surprised at his stance.
So if you had played the game without butting heads with Alistair on nearly every quest that means you did the "fluffy bunnies and rainbow unicorns" choices even when doing so only worked because the script said it should and at the very last minute decided to make a choice that is questionable even to a morally grey pragmatic Warden.
A couple things immediately spring to mind reading this. One is that even if I didn't completely understand a character they could still be my favorite. Absolute knowledge isn't a prerequisite to favorites. Though this isn't my conceding that I don't understand his character. You've just misinterpreted what I said as some sort of purely logical rant about how conscripting Loghain of course makes complete sense. Which I don't know that it makes complete sense, but IF we were having that discussion I'd make a case for it making the most sense. Though we aren't.
Another is that you're framing this as though I'm arguing his ultimatum is ridiculous from a logical perspective, and while that is true that is not at all what I'm appealing to and I don't think my post at all reads like an appeal to logic either. It is me being frustrated with a character who will turn his back on literally everything he knows if you refuse to let him have revenge. I can appreciate why he'd want to kill Loghain, but denying him that is NOWHERE near enough cause for him to abandon virtually everything! The blight, the grey wardens, all his comrades, basically everything. I dunno how you've logic'd it to where not turning your back on your friends and duty at the most dire hour of your adventure is purely a pragmatic thing, but that reasoning has a shaky foundation oh boy.
I am not even sure what you're trying to say here. Whatever it is you mean to convey, I'll point out that anything to do with Loghain is invariably gray. There's no cut and dry right or wrong. He did some awful stuff, but he also used to be a hero and if he is willing to atone there's no better avenue for that than becoming a grey warden I say. Sparing him would be closest "fluffy bunnies and rainbow unicorns" decision here.
I assume you pointed out those aforementioned bunnies and unicorns because Alister jives with all the most morally clean stuff and you think sparing Loghain doesn't align with that. Nah, that simply isn't true. Alister is way too blinded by his blood lust to see clearly, that's COMPLETELY apparent. Just because Alister wants him dead doesn't mean it fits this "fluffy bunnies and rainbow unicorns" aesthetic it seems you've conjured up for him.
I'll also add that really nothing in this game aligns with that. There are happier endings, but it's a grim setting where nasty stuff happens. No one is completely happy. It was erroneous to say anything in this game constituted a "fluffy bunnies and rainbow unicorns" situation. Maybe you're the one who lacks an understanding of this game.
And before anyone else says something about the prestigous nature of the Grey Wardens, YOU'RE WRONG! They aren't an inherently noble order. The whole point of conscripting people is snatching up reprobates because they're better put towards fighting darkspawn than rotting in a cell
You can argue maybe he should be a stronger man and harden up more and accept the more help even from someone as aweful as he, but at this point there really no reason 1more guy should/would be a tipping point (including fact he techincally may die to joining any ways as seen at start of game).
And even more so given the fact you can debate the bad morale/infighting/distraction/etc... and everything he could bring to party+army+everyone given all he is and has done which was even brought forward to everyone likely/possibly almost all agreeing in that court was bad 2secs before (all this bit of course not showing/affecting game, but should still be counted for story/immersion/character).
Nope, I never said Allister was driven by logic, he has always been driven by his idealism, overly romanticized vision of the Wardens, and his emotions. His flaws and general likability are what makes him a well written character and your inability to see things from his perspective AFTER your Warden betrayed him is ... perplexing.
Look at it this way, there are three basic possible Wardens in regards to Alistair's story...
A ruthless SOB (that Alistair believes is unworthy of even being a Warden) who had clashed with Alistair over the last year and sparing Loghain is just the final straw that broke the camel's back in a long list of slights that has been bubbling just under the surface.
A friend and comrade in arms who generally falls in line with Alistair's romanticized vision of the order as heroic knights, even if the two sometimes clash. In this version sparing Loghain comes a shock to Alistair and his reaction to someone who he shed blood, sweat, and tears with over the course of a year betraying him unexpectedly is what causes his emotional stand.
And of course there is the path my Warden takes, which is Alistair's lover, and do I really need to go into why the betrayal hurts so much when it comes from his first love?
So yeah, the "bad take" is yours to own.
Both are highly politically driven, ruthlessly pragmatic, and "♥♥♥♥ moves" but from those two perspectives sparing Loghain does make sense.
Couple things here.
I dunno why you keep citing this preconceived notion that I can not imagine or appreciate Alistair's position in this. Like, it's a weak base to contest my position from because Alistair's issue is pretty transparent, particularly because WE GO THROUGH IT WITH HIM! We all knew Duncan, all our characters were invariably saved by him, and we all personally witness his betrayal at Ostagar alongside every effort he makes to defame the Grey Wardens and undermine our efforts.
Sure, Alistair presumably knew Duncan better than our character did and his loss would be bigger for him, but it's still a loss for our character and every slight after the fact is punching at both in equal measures from that point on. I sympathize with Alistair, I can understand why he is less willing to forgive or allow a chance at redemption then we our, but by no ♥♥♥♥♥♥' reasonable metric is that frustration with our denying him revenge a big enough slight to warrant him ABANDONING (I must reiterate and EMPHASIZE) EVERYTHING. Like, how you're perfectly willing to dismiss the fact that he will leave you just before you face the most treacherous hump of the journey is bonkers to me.
Even Zevran is better ally and friend than him in that regard. Yeah, the same guy who initially tries to kill you and who will take another stab at you if you haven't earned his respect is more reliable than the templar grey warden Alistair. At least once you've earned his friendship it's not so easily lost. Zevran will stick with you even though it means the Crows will keep coming after him. Comparatively, Alistair will leave if you don't let him kill a guy he doesn't like. Pretty unfavorable comparison, me thinks.
What constitutes a betrayal to your mind? You've accused me of betraying Alistair a couple of times already, but you've not once elaborated on how not killing Loghain constitutes betraying Alistair. Note that I'm not actually asking you to elaborate on that though, because you can't legitimately say that we do betray them. Don't worry though, I WILL expand on why that is.
Only by the most generous definition of betrayal does it technically read as one. That is by virtue of the fact that it might *betray* his expectations that we are just as out for blood as he is (and generally before speaking to Anora and the events at the Landsmeet I am). But we don't seriously betray Alistair in any way here by sparing Loghain. Letting Loghain live doesn't put Alistair in any sort of danger. It wasn't apart of some sinister scheme full of malicious intent or consequences. The worst thing that happens to Alistair if you let Loghain live is that he has to find a more productive way to grieve for Duncan. Something that doesn't entail killing someone and damned be whoever would prevent you from doing it.
Well, that'd be the worst thing if he decided to be a decent person and bite that bullet while seeing things through to the end with us. In reality he runs away and becomes a drunkard in Kirkwall. Wow, real hero right here ladies and gentleman. Abandoned his friends and "romanticized vision of the order as heroic knights" to get piss drunk on cheap booze because the person he seeded leadership to thought Loghain would serve the world better alive than dead.
And if we're going to talk about betrayal how on this smog ball of planet do you imagine that Alistair running away isn't a betrayal? Even when you're a
he will without hesitation leave you behind to fight the archdemon one gray warden short. One of possibly the only TWO in ALL OF FERELDEN! That right there is my whole issue with his ultimatum! He is betraying your character by doing this! As much as it makes sense for him to not want to let Loghain is, and as much as letting someone like like Loghain join the Grey Wardens may conflict with his inaccurate head canon of what the Grey Wardens are, leaving you for sparing Loghain is nowhere close to appropriate or decent given all you go through in the game. Sulk for awhile, sure. Give you grief every chance he gets? Sure. Hell maybe storm off to brood unannocuned to you? Fine, I can get it, but at the end of the day if he doesn't have your back when the cards come down he is actually betraying you and the Grey Wardens both.
This doesn't actually make sense as you can do some seriousyl heinous ♥♥♥♥ that super conflicts with Alistair's beliefs and he won't say ♥♥♥♥. If you actually imagine this is how Alistair thinks it reflects really poorly on him, no? Because he'll watch you feed ♥♥♥♥ to everyone else and stay by your side, but the second you do something that goes against what he is personally invested in (which ironically enough is you taking a break from a what would be a water park of blood and scum to show mercy to a man that had personally betrayed you) is the the same second where he decides you two are done. He will abide by every morally dubious or outright evil thing you do, but only so long as he has no stakes in it. If this is what you think of Alistair I dunno how'd you ever want to romance him. And on that note...
Ummmm, yeah, maybe you ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ do because it is specifically your demographic that should be the most upset with the ultimatum! My warden was only Alistair's closest friend and trusted partner. Your warden and Alistair were in love with each other and he'll still totally drop your ass (someone who at this point he'd perceive as a life partner), the blight, and all your other companions if he doesn't get to have his revenge!
Like, it baffles me that you specifically can totally gell with Alistair being like "No, I get what I want or I am leaving you, ditching the Grey Wardens, and you can go ahead and try your luck with Loghain against the Archdemon if you think he's so great!".
So yeah, maybe dig into why a betrayal at the hands of your significant other might be particularly poignant. Fairly confident the particulars of that exclusively lend themselves to my point.
Yo, except for clearly there isn't? As I played as neither a dwarf noble or an oppurtunistic human noble. I was a mage and I invairably want to show mercy to Loghain because by the time we reach this ultimatum at the Landsmeet I see him as someone who seemed to have done all they did, at least initially, to help Ferelden. Generally speaking, the only thing I love more than a good revenge story is a better redemption arc. Loghain ain't gonna be immortal as a Grey Warden, quite the opposite. That path has a very bitter end (as much as he arguably deserves), so if he proves that my mercy was misplaced then that can be easily changed much to the glee of our new manchild king. Though, seeing all his interactions after the fact I can use my supreme omniscient gamer knowledge to say that he sets his act straight after being conscripted.
Though whether or not he deserves mercy is well and truly besides my initial point. You could scream he deserves to die all day and there'd be some compelling points to back it up. Deserving of mercy or not, the fact that Alistair will look past all you've done for him and Ferelden and abandon you and his duty if you decide to extend that mercy to Loghain is super lame.
Given that romanticized ideal he has for the Grey Wardens I'd also say it's out of character too. You can't tell me he cares that much about the Grey Wardens and simultaneously vouch for him forsaking their most important undertaking for entirely personal reasons. No matter how conflicted he might be about working with Loghain, or how air headed and idealistic he is, there's no looking past the leviathan sized fish that needs to be fried.