Dagger / Shortsword scaling

[Gorwe]

So, what's the final verdict? Does it scale 50 / 50 with STR / DEX or just with STR or 0,85 with STR? I don't really understand this...

[Ilja]

50/50. STR/DEX.

It used to rely 100% on STR, but it was fixed in patch 1.02a.

[Gorwe]

Originally posted by Ilja:

50/50. STR/DEX.

It used to rely 100% on STR, but it was fixed in patch 1.02a.

Ok, so I can go for heavy DEX, fine.

What's that 0,85 on a tooltip then?

[Ilja]

Attribute modfier. Damage does nto grow 1ATR+1DMG style. If you want to know calucalations, then you can find them from this page.

Combat mechanics (Origins) in Dragon Age Wiki
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Combat_mechanics_(Origins)

[Gorwe]

Originally posted by Ilja:

Attribute modfier. Damage does nto grow 1ATR+1DMG style. If you want to know calucalations, then you can find them from this page.

Combat mechanics (Origins) in Dragon Age Wiki
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Combat_mechanics_(Origins)

Thank you. Just to see if I got it right(forgive me if I use the wrong coeffs):

An imaginary 2H Axe at 50 STR and level 15 with Powerful Swings on would deal(per hit):

Weapon damage = 20
Attribute damage = 33(avg)
Character damage = 17
Sum = 70

While a double shortsword(sorry, those are not daggers) with 25 / 25 on level 15 and with Dual Striking would deal:

Weapon damage = 16(2*8)
Attribute damage = 8(2*4)
Character damage = 18(2*6 + 2*3)
Sum = 42 (seems weak, but do notice that a Dual wielder will hit twice during a normal 2H swing period, hence making this 84!)

That number would be halved without the Dual Striking.

edit: The nomenclature confused me. It says STRENGTH modifier, you know? But is actually applied regardless whether it's STR, DEX or even CON(lol). It's just a modifier and should be called "Damage modifier" not "Strength modifier".

[Gorwe]

Just to quote SWTOR Smuggler:

"Why can't things be easy, just for once?"

[Ilja]

Rember Armor Penetration, which is managed by your Cunning atribute. That is the main reason to use daggers. They are fast and have good base AP, but they do little damage compared to other weapons.

With high CUN, DEX and proper talents, you can hit enemy so fast and with such a good AP that it becomes a valid combination.

Of course high CUN stops being useful over time, if you only add it for the sake of AP. Most rogue talents depend on it, so I often have STR 20 and other points mostly divided between DEX and CUN.

[Gorwe]

Originally posted by Ilja:

Rember Armor Penetration, which is managed by your Cunning atribute. That is the main reason to use daggers. They are fast and have good base AP, but they do little damage compared to other weapons.

With high CUN, DEX and proper talents, you can hit enemy so fast and with such a good AP that it becomes a valid combination.

Of course high CUN stops being useful over time, if you only add it for the sake of AP. Most rogue talents depend on it, so I often have STR 20 and other points mostly divided between DEX and CUN.

Tbh, even high DEX Warrior would work. Because of Berserker, Poisons and Coatings. Only Berserker gives you +16 damage when Dual Striking which is, as I'm sure you understand, HUGE. Given the natural speed of Shortswords, that translates to something like +24(when compared to Sword and Shield, ie balanced speed) damage. Then factor in a Coating, Two Poisons...lol, yeah right.

I am not even certain whether the Rogue is better at this. Even with something like Combat Tweaks mod. Which only says how nicely balanced and designed DA:O is-which is something that is RARELY witnessed.

[Ilja]

Yeah. You can do very nice combinations there. :)

It is hard to say which class and specialization would be "best." I personally favour Assassin specialization, which is devastating with high CUN, mediocre DEX and without added extra Crit% bonuses.

But, that is just me. I like playing active characters. Berserker would also be another very effective build. Ash warriors have characters wielding dual daggers among their ranks. I have been considering of creating similar class, when I next time launch the game.

I am currently stuck with Fallout 4 though. It is nice play something else than fantasy settings for a change.

[Gorwe]

Originally posted by Ilja:

Yeah. You can do very nice combinations there. :)

It is hard to say which class and specialization would be "best." I personally favour Assassin specialization, which is devastating with high CUN, mediocre DEX and without added extra Crit% bonuses.

But, that is just me. I like playing active characters. Berserker would also be another very effective build. Ash warriors have characters wielding dual daggers among their ranks. I have been considering of creating similar class, when I next time launch the game.

I am currently stuck with Fallout 4 though. It is nice play something else than fantasy settings for a change.

Yeah, a DW Shortsword Berserker would be an Ash Warrior, good point! How did I not see that?

Tbh, I just want to create characters and attack enemies a la Horde Mode in DA:O. It has such a good gameplay mixed with such a good world...oddly enough I don't even care about the story(but then again, it never was a high point of DA:O, at least not imo).

[K00lex]

Originally posted by Gorwe:

An imaginary 2H Axe at 50 STR and level 15 with Powerful Swings on would deal(per hit):

Weapon damage = 20
Attribute damage = 33(avg)
Character damage = 17
Sum = 70

Your numbers are a bit high.
Assuming against 0 armor, avg damage would be 58.5.
avgDMG = 20 + (40 * 1.1 * 0.625) + (0.4 * 15) + 5

Max possible is 64.
maxDMG = 20 + (40 * 1.1 * 0.75) + (0.4 * 15) + 5

FYI, the best battleaxe in DA:O+A is Dragonbone Cleaver (DMG=18, AP=7.5).
However, the highest damage is from greatswords: either Dragonbrand or Vigilance (DMG=19.8, AP 7.5).
Against heavily armored opponents, mauls are better: either Leg-Crusher or Valos Atredum (DMG=15.3, AP=15.75)

To get DPS, one would have to account for Attack Speeed, which is based on attack style (single/2-hand/dual) and Weapon Speed Modifiers. Greatswords swing ok at 2.5sec, but mauls are a bit slower (2.55sec), and battleaxes are slowest (2.6sec).

Then, there are additional damage bonuses from sustained and activated talents, critical hits, runes, coatings, and flaming/frost enchantments.

Originally posted by Gorwe:

While a double shortsword(sorry, those are not daggers) with 25 / 25 on level 15 and with Dual Striking would deal:

Weapon damage = 16(2*8)
Attribute damage = 8(2*4)
Character damage = 18(2*6 + 2*3)
Sum = 42 (seems weak, but do notice that a Dual wielder will hit twice during a normal 2H swing period, hence making this 84!)

That number would be halved without the Dual Striking.

My calculations of your example:

avgDMG = 2 * ( 8 + (15 * 0.85 * 0.375) + (0.4 * 15)) = 37.6
maxDMG = 2 * ( 8 + (15 * 0.85 * 0.5) + (0.4 * 15) = 40.6

Much less disparity against 2-handers. avg 58.5 vs avg 37.6 (vice 70 vs. 42)

Best daggers are Voice of Velvet or Tooth of the Mountain-Father (DMG=7.2, AP=10)

Of course, daggers have fastest speed (swings at 1.0sec if dual-wielding), very high armor penetration, and highest critical hit chance. Thus, its DPS is much higher than single-hand or 2-handers.
avgDPS for battleaxe above: 58.6 / 2.6s = 22.5
avgDPS for sample dagger: 37.6 / 1.0s = 37.6

Without Dual Striking sustained, avgDPS is 18.8 for dual daggers here, but then, critical hits are possible, which add 50-200% bonus damage.

Originally posted by Gorwe:

edit: The nomenclature confused me. It says STRENGTH modifier, you know? But is actually applied regardless whether it's STR, DEX or even CON(lol). It's just a modifier and should be called "Damage modifier" not "Strength modifier".

Yes, the table headings on individual weapons pages need to be changed. However, relevant DAO Wiki pages use Attribute Modifier, i.e. Combat Mechanics and general Weapons.

[K00lex]

Originally posted by Gorwe:

I am not even certain whether the Rogue is better at this. Even with something like Combat Tweaks mod. Which only says how nicely balanced and designed DA:O is-which is something that is RARELY witnessed.

Actually, Rogue talents complement a dual-dagger wielder.

Lethality (substitutes CUN vice STR to calculate Attribute Based Damage & +10% Melee Critical Chance), Combat Movement (adds +2% melee crit chance, in addition to increasing flanking arc), Coup De Grace (adds +1% melee crit chance, plus auto-backstabs against incapacitated enemies), and Stealth.

Start an attack from Stealth to initiate auto-crit hit. Then, activate Dirty Fighting to stun target for 4 sec. Follow by Backstab/Auto-Crit attacks using Coup De Grace. That's 5 auto-crit hits with dual daggers (without any counterattack). More than 5 attacks, if the rogue is sustaining Momentum.
Afterward, switch to Dual Weapons talents, such as Riposte (to stun for another 4 sec (very successful if CUN is high) with an auto-crit if stunned), Punisher (to knockdown), or Flurry (to finish off quickly).

Basically, a solo boss-killer and very effective against enemy casters. The one-on-one duel with Loghain is a cakewalk.

[Gorwe]

Originally posted by K00lex:

Originally posted by Gorwe:

An imaginary 2H Axe at 50 STR and level 15 with Powerful Swings on would deal(per hit):

Weapon damage = 20
Attribute damage = 33(avg)
Character damage = 17
Sum = 70

Your numbers are a bit high.
Assuming against 0 armor, avg damage would be 58.5.
avgDMG = 20 + (40 * 1.1 * 0.625) + (0.4 * 15) + 5

Max possible is 64.
maxDMG = 20 + (40 * 1.1 * 0.75) + (0.4 * 15) + 5

FYI, the best battleaxe in DA:O+A is Dragonbone Cleaver (DMG=18, AP=7.5).
However, the highest damage is from greatswords: either Dragonbrand or Vigilance (DMG=19.8, AP 7.5).
Against heavily armored opponents, mauls are better: either Leg-Crusher or Valos Atredum (DMG=15.3, AP=15.75)

To get DPS, one would have to account for Attack Speeed, which is based on attack style (single/2-hand/dual) and Weapon Speed Modifiers. Greatswords swing ok at 2.5sec, but mauls are a bit slower (2.55sec), and battleaxes are slowest (2.6sec).

Then, there are additional damage bonuses from sustained and activated talents, critical hits, runes, coatings, and flaming/frost enchantments.

Originally posted by Gorwe:

While a double shortsword(sorry, those are not daggers) with 25 / 25 on level 15 and with Dual Striking would deal:

Weapon damage = 16(2*8)
Attribute damage = 8(2*4)
Character damage = 18(2*6 + 2*3)
Sum = 42 (seems weak, but do notice that a Dual wielder will hit twice during a normal 2H swing period, hence making this 84!)

That number would be halved without the Dual Striking.

My calculations of your example:

avgDMG = 2 * ( 8 + (15 * 0.85 * 0.375) + (0.4 * 15)) = 37.6
maxDMG = 2 * ( 8 + (15 * 0.85 * 0.5) + (0.4 * 15) = 40.6

Much less disparity against 2-handers. avg 58.5 vs avg 37.6 (vice 70 vs. 42)

Best daggers are Voice of Velvet or Tooth of the Mountain-Father (DMG=7.2, AP=10)

Of course, daggers have fastest speed (swings at 1.0sec if dual-wielding), very high armor penetration, and highest critical hit chance. Thus, its DPS is much higher than single-hand or 2-handers.
avgDPS for battleaxe above: 58.6 / 2.6s = 22.5
avgDPS for sample dagger: 37.6 / 1.0s = 37.6

Without Dual Striking sustained, avgDPS is 18.8 for dual daggers here, but then, critical hits are possible, which add 50-200% bonus damage.

Originally posted by Gorwe:

edit: The nomenclature confused me. It says STRENGTH modifier, you know? But is actually applied regardless whether it's STR, DEX or even CON(lol). It's just a modifier and should be called "Damage modifier" not "Strength modifier".

Yes, the table headings on individual weapons pages need to be changed. However, relevant DAO Wiki pages use Attribute Modifier, i.e. Combat Mechanics and general Weapons.

Well sure. The point is:

DW = DPS(idk...against bosses? Perfect there, kinda useless otherwise-oh and also on higher difficulties DW's worth actually rises)
2H = Burst / sub boss cleanup(really, two Sweeps just DEVASTATE sub bosses. Kinda useless vs bosses and especially vs bosses on higher difficulties-apart from that nice S.Armor debuff)
S + S = Tank(orly?)
Ranged = All around
Primal Mage = AoE CC + Damage ; Dangerous(especially on higher diffs -> FF) and Powerful

None is really better than the other. They all have their place.

edit: I still think that a Zerk DW is better. But it doesn't have the stuns of a DW Rogue, that much is certain. But the raw DPS potential? My good lord! Even all the Mage AoEs(Blizzard, Tempest etc) casted in sequence at 100SP have difficulty matching it. I don't really believe you need that potential though(what's so difficult to warrant THAT).

[K00lex]

Originally posted by Ilja:

It is hard to say which class and specialization would be "best." I personally favour Assassin specialization, which is devastating with high CUN, mediocre DEX and without added extra Crit% bonuses.

Yes, dual-dagger Cunning-based Assassin-Bard Rogue output high DPS and can easily solo on Nightmare level. CUN contributes into DMG calculation via Lethality and provides higher Armor Penetration, i.e more damage.

An old thread on Bioware DAO Forum (titled "DPS Calculations for a DW Rogue") has an in-depth analysis of different weapon types in each hand, concluding with Dagger+Dagger CUN-Rogue as highest DPS. https://web.archive.org/web/20160412042302/http://forum.bioware.com/topic/20196-dps-calculations-for-a-dw-rogue/

Much more damge if buffs/debuffs are included, such as Momentum, Haste, Song of Courage, Mark of Death, etc... Then, there is auto-crit and/or backstab from being a Rogue.

[K00lex]

Originally posted by Gorwe:

DW = DPS(idk...against bosses? Perfect there, kinda useless otherwise-oh and also on higher difficulties DW's worth actually rises)
2H = Burst / sub boss cleanup(really, two Sweeps just DEVASTATE sub bosses. Kinda useless vs bosses and especially vs bosses on higher difficulties-apart from that nice S.Armor debuff)
S + S = Tank(orly?)

Dual Weapon Talents have a debuff (Cripple), a stun (Riposte), knockdown (Punisher), partial AOE (Dual-Weapon Sweep), and 360 AOE (Whirlwind).

Two-Handed Talents have debuffs (Mighty Blow, Sunder Arms, Sunder Armor) , stun (Stunning Blows), knockdown (Pommel Stirke), and 360 AOE (Two-Handed Sweep).

Whirlwind can be more damaging than 2-H Sweep, since it is using both weapons. But, WW doesn't have secondary effect of knockdown.

Weapon and Shield Talents have knockdowns (Shield Bash, Overpower) and stun (Shield Pummel), but no AOE, so not useful against a crowd. With high defense including anti-flanking and anti-knockdown, W+S can take on a boss.

Originally posted by Gorwe:

Ranged = All around
Primal Mage = AoE CC + Damage ; Dangerous(especially on higher diffs -> FF) and Powerful

None is really better than the other. They all have their place.

Concur.
Many times, I switch to different strategy/tactic or companions on same type of enemy for variety sake. :-)

Originally posted by Gorwe:

edit: I still think that a Zerk DW is better. But it doesn't have the stuns of a DW Rogue, that much is certain. But the raw DPS potential? My good lord! Even all the Mage AoEs(Blizzard, Tempest etc) casted in sequence at 100SP have difficulty matching it. I don't really believe you need that potential though(what's so difficult to warrant THAT).

Maybe going solo against some of the tough bosses, such as Sloth Demons, Revenants, Witherfang, Zathrian, Branka, Steel Golem, Corrupted Spider Queen, or Ser Cauthrien. Or, elite bosses, such as High Dragons, Pride Demons, Gaxkang, or Archdemon. ;-)

I haven't spec'd my warrior companions as dual-wielders. Maybe one day...
As for my Warden, if I am going to be a DW, I'd rather be a Rogue, so that I can use rogue talents, outside of combat, such as lockpicking and disarming traps. Heheh...

[Gorwe]

Originally posted by K00lex:

Originally posted by Gorwe:

DW = DPS(idk...against bosses? Perfect there, kinda useless otherwise-oh and also on higher difficulties DW's worth actually rises)
2H = Burst / sub boss cleanup(really, two Sweeps just DEVASTATE sub bosses. Kinda useless vs bosses and especially vs bosses on higher difficulties-apart from that nice S.Armor debuff)
S + S = Tank(orly?)

Dual Weapon Talents have a debuff (Cripple), a stun (Riposte), knockdown (Punisher), partial AOE (Dual-Weapon Sweep), and 360 AOE (Whirlwind).

Two-Handed Talents have debuffs (Mighty Blow, Sunder Arms, Sunder Armor) , stun (Stunning Blows), knockdown (Pommel Stirke), and 360 AOE (Two-Handed Sweep).

Whirlwind can be more damaging than 2-H Sweep, since it is using both weapons. But, WW doesn't have secondary effect of knockdown.

Weapon and Shield Talents have knockdowns (Shield Bash, Overpower) and stun (Shield Pummel), but no AOE, so not useful against a crowd. With high defense including anti-flanking and anti-knockdown, W+S can take on a boss.

Originally posted by Gorwe:

Ranged = All around
Primal Mage = AoE CC + Damage ; Dangerous(especially on higher diffs -> FF) and Powerful

None is really better than the other. They all have their place.

Concur.
Many times, I switch to different strategy/tactic or companions on same type of enemy for variety sake. :-)

Originally posted by Gorwe:

edit: I still think that a Zerk DW is better. But it doesn't have the stuns of a DW Rogue, that much is certain. But the raw DPS potential? My good lord! Even all the Mage AoEs(Blizzard, Tempest etc) casted in sequence at 100SP have difficulty matching it. I don't really believe you need that potential though(what's so difficult to warrant THAT).

Maybe going solo against some of the tough bosses, such as Sloth Demons, Revenants, Witherfang, Zathrian, Branka, Steel Golem, Corrupted Spider Queen, or Ser Cauthrien. Or, elite bosses, such as High Dragons, Pride Demons, Gaxkang, or Archdemon. ;-)

I haven't spec'd my warrior companions as dual-wielders. Maybe one day...
As for my Warden, if I am going to be a DW, I'd rather be a Rogue, so that I can use rogue talents, outside of combat, such as lockpicking and disarming traps. Heheh...

Ah yes, soloing dragons. Almost makes me want to carry a 2H as a second weapon for a buffer of CC protection(usually the stuns and the like). I really believe you'll outdamage them lol. DW is fun(EDIT: rarely a thing is unfun here. Ok, ok, I could ask for a voiced Main -> the silent one's boring tbh). Tbh, I'd prefer if 2H struck everyone in front of you(I heard that...Dragon Age 2's{?} 2H works like that). It wouldn't make it OP or anything, it'd just make your cleanup duty both more fun and efficient. Maybe tie it to a modal like Powerful Swings? Idk, the icon looks like it could depict such strikes...