First thoughts on new units (tier 1)

[wyldmage]

About to start my first game, long time MotBW fan.

Looking over the units to make initial decisions, here are my thoughts on all old & new units:

Neutral:

• Militiaman - I still hate these guys. I mean, they aren't bad for their cost. But the fact that they eat up one of your four tier 1 buildings is devastating. They are literal meat shields (and barely even that). Paired with spearmen, it unlocks Light Infantry guard units, which are useful, but not needed.
  
• Slinger - The other dirt-cheap unit, these guys are at least useful if you want a cheap-o unit for the first few weeks of the game. Their damage and range are mediocre, and squishy as can be. But at least by being ranged units, they can hope to get some free shots off in a battle vs melee. Additionally, just building them allows you to get access to Watchmen guards, which can be quite useful due to the +1 vision range for a protected province.
  
• Spearmen - What the Militiamen wish they were, and what they can upgrade into. Which is the other big problem with unlocking Light Infantry guard units. You should never want to build both the buildings for Militiamen and Spearmen. Spearmen are a great low cost (but not trivial) tier 1 unit to act as front line warriors. With their one-shot ranged attack and a couple points of armor, they have just enough utility and durability to soak up a bit of damage in the early game instead of simply exploding like a Militiaman.
  
• Bowman - Oh how much I loved and hated these units. As the only 5 range tier 1 unit in MotBW, they could provide key damage in low tier fights. However, they quickly ran out of usefulness later into the game (when meat shields still at least get in the enemy's way). Their biggest drawback was (and continues to be) their massive 12 upkeep cost. You could at least drop it via lucky Forager upgrades from leveling (even just getting it to 8 makes them reasonable). Great unit for early game, but barely better than the Militiaman once you're fighting tier 3 units. Also opens up later access to the Huntsmen guard unit, which is useful for dropping upkeep costs in outpost garrisons.
  
• Flagellent - At 5 gold and 1 upkeep above the Militiaman, these guys are what you should get for dirt cheap meat shields. With 4 resist, they put the dampener on early casters. With 2 more hp and 3 more attack, they should be significantly more useful early on. They lose out on 2 counter-attack, but if your Militiamen were counter-attacking, they were 1 hit away from death anyhow. Tier 3 access to Fanatics guards looks interesting for provinces that have rebellion issues, but don't think they're interesting enough to impact choice of tier 1 units.
  
• Wisewoman - A slightly more expensive healer, these ladies look to be a great medic solution for neutral or unscrupulous players. They lose out on 1 ammo, but gain 2 hp, 1 ranged defense, and 1 resist. Plus they can use their ammo for Inspiration or Cure Poison as well. If they are able to gain abilities to recharge ammo, they could be an amazing early game option. Even without that, they have a solid potential use. Paired with Hunter, opens up access to Hunting Party guard units, which are a nifty improvement on Watchmen guards (gaining 25% garrison cost reduction). This works great, since upgraded outposts also provide vision boosts (so you are gaining 2 points of further vision, and dropping the upkeep of units in the garrison).
  
• Hunter - Holy hell, these guys completely make the Bowman obsolete. At a mere 1 turn longer til you can get them, they come pre-loaded with -5 gold cost and Forager (for a total drop of 9 gold). They're barely more than half the recruitment cost, with 5 more hp and 4 more ranged defense (keeping them safe from enemy archers!). They even get Forest and Swamp knowledge, so if they aren't with a Scout, they don't mind. Bowmen can get double shot, but at this point, who cares? Even without that upgrade (dunno what upgrades they see yet), these guys would be superior. Opens up Hunting Party guards when paired with Wisewomen, who are great.

Lawful/Good

• Swordsman - My least favorite MotBW lawful unit, the swordsman isn't statistically bad. Its just that he fails to bring anything useful to the lawful player's table. Parry only works on one attack per round, and a mere 1 speed makes it too hard to make good use of these guys until they level up and snag forced march. Even then, I'd usually rather have a Pikeman or Spearman. Typically when I play lawful, I get Guardsmen tier 2, which trivializes either melee tier 1 unit anyways, and Pikemen are just too much better during tier 1 only times. Plus they're more expensive, at a painful 9 gold/turn. Paired with Crossbowmen, you gain access to Warden guards, which slow unrest growth and are decently strong. However, unrest reduction is only 50% better than Patrolmen who are 1 gold/turn cheaper and come from Pikemen + Healer (who I greatly prefer building).
  
• Pikemen - Amazing early game melee unit. These guys rip through all the 0-2 defense tier 1 units. Backed up by a bit of healing for when they don't one-shot their attacker, they don't fall off completely until late tier 2 of the game (by which time you'll be using leveled up Guardsmen anyways). Biggest drawback is their poor 1 speed, but you can usually bait the computer into attacking them, so it's fine. Paired with Healers, you'll get access to Patrolmen guards who are the slightly-weaker version of Warden guards. However, since they generally fill the same guard role, I significantly prefer Patrolmen due to who you need to build.
  
• Crossbowmen - The lawful ranged unit, these guys are one of the most useful mid/late game tier 1 units (outside ally units). Armor piercing shots means that they'll continue to do some damage all the way into tier 3 versus a decent number of units. However, during tier 1, they are very restricted in use due to 1 speed and only 4 range. I mostly have only built these guys if my first hero is a Scout or Wizard that doesn't need extra ranged power (and thus I can build them for use during tier 2). Obviously, you can still make good use of them early, but at a 12 gold/turn upkeep, they are significantly less useful than Bowmen (and now Hunters) early on. And unlike the Bowman, they don't gain Forager to mitigate that upkeep ever. Pair with Swordsmen to open up Warden guard access.
  
• Healers - Tier 1 crappy healing unit. But hey, its a healer! Provides a ton of use if you get into an early siege, as well as topping off your units during combat without burning hero spells. I absolutely love having 1 of these in an army once you have 4 other units (assuming you're playing lawful). Pairs with Pikemen to open up Patrolmen guards.
  
• Triarii - A new, slightly beefier version of the Pikemen? I'm a fan already. However, I hope they do more to change/improve the Pikemen so that choosing between these 2 units is an actual choice. Triarii are boasting a change of 1 health, 1 stamina, 2 morale, 1 speed, 1 attack, -1 counterattack, and +1 resist compared to the Pikemen, for a mere 5 gold to hire and 1 gold/turn upkeep. Plus you snag Discipline, allowing your defenses to boost even higher. The loss of 1 counterattack for a first strike unit definitely sucks, but I think everything else (especially the speed) combines to make it a good trade-off. From the official teaser post, they even still gain access to Armor Piercing, Thrust, and Forced March (only maybe losing some of the lvl 11+ abilities that Pikemen can gain). Sadly, the building for these guys doesn't provide access to anything guard-wise (biggest disadvantage they have, honestly).
  
• Legionaries - Not a fan of these guys at first glance. A measly 2 defense puts them on par with the Pikeman, and 1 below the Swordsman (after they lose their parry). Even with raised shield, they are only 1 above a Swordsman. They at least get 2 speed, but that still leaves them on par (or slightly worse) than a Swordsman to me. They've got some definite uses in PvP though, if you know you're going against someone who likes to use Hunters/Bowmen. They really need 1 more melee defense and -1 upkeep, or have Discipline. Paired with the Skirmishers, you open up access to Deserter guards, who have good stats, but nothing particularly special. And considering early game spending 10 gold upkeep on a "generic" guard unit is super painful on your income, I'm not impressed by that either.
  
• Skirmishers - Okay, I love these guys. They are a slightly more expensive (5 gold, 1 upkeep) version of the Spearmen. You sacrifice 2 counterattack in exchange for +2 ammo, +1 range, +1 stamina, and Rain of Javelins (morale decreasing ranged attack). I think these guys plus Triarii will easily form my rank and file tier 1 units from now on, with either some Crossbowmen or Hunters to provide covering fire.

Unscrupulous/Evil

• Barbarians - Always on the fence when it comes to the Barbs. They can get some good damage output, but without any healing access, you'll pretty much never level them up much. But with how boring the Brigand is, these guys make up my Unscrupulous path tier 1 melee units in MotBW. However, with new access to the Wisewoman, I could see them getting some better usage. 20 hp and 9 attack means that they do at least do their job well though, especially for a mid-cost tier 1 unit. Plus, combined with the Shamans, opens up to the generic low-upkeep Tribe guards.
  
• Thieves - The unit that the AI never uses well. I love archers, and the AI will pretty much *never* activate Stealth. Honestly, these guys are a squishier version of the Spearman, but at a mere 3 gold upkeep (plus Marauder), they're a great fodder unit. Just don't expect them to reach high levels. Honestly, they are one of my favorite unscrupulous units, simply because they are cheap, expendable, and yet still pack some fun utility. Sadly, building them doesn't lead to any guard units.
  
• Brigands - These guys are your generic, run-of-the-mill evil foot soldiers. Average but not exceptional stats across the board, I hate them due to how boring they are. Even leveling up doesn't make them interesting. And with only 5 lower Marauder than the Thief, I just can't find any reason to use them in an army over Barbarians. Opens up access to the Cuttthroat guards, who just cost 20% of the province income for upkeep. Easily the best value guard unit early in the game, despite their low combat power.
  
• Shamans - These ranged units are right on par with the Crossbowmen, except that they have 2 movement, which makes them significantly more useful in the early game (letting you move 1 and shoot). Plus, access to curse keeps them useful for a bit past mid tier 2 when they can drop the potential of the enemy's strongest unit (that doesn't have tons of resist). Opening up the Tribe guard (with Barbarians) is also quite useful.
  
• Trappers - Pretty meh first reaction looking at them. Ensnaring targets is going to be nice, especially with 3 ammo. So they'll be able to combo together with other units quite well. However, they do pathetic damage for having a 6 gold upkeep, making them a luxury unit for most armies. Ensnare should at least keep them relevant further into the game though, so they could have quite some use as an early investment into the future. Also, doesn't lead to any guard unit, which further restricts options if you build them.
  
• Woodsmen - It's a Brigand without the self-impairing income penalties. Sure you're spending 6 gold upkeep and giving up some melee stats, but gaining a 4 power 4 ranged attack with 8 ammo is worth it. Just getting 1-2 hits in before engaging in melee with *every* melee unit you bring can be huge. Toss on Swamp Knowledge, Forest Knowledge, and Paralyzing Poison and you have a solid unit to fill your ranks with that can work in any situation. These guys alone make me wonder how much I'd ever care about the Trappers. Sadly, another build path that doesn't provide additional guard choices :(
  
• Witchdoctors - Bringing the Unscrupulous path up to three tier 1 units with 4 range, the Witchdoctor risks redundancy with the Shaman. Without Curse, you're giving up a lot of the utility that Shaman's enjoy, and paying an extra 3 gold and 1 crystal per turn. Additionally, you lose 1 ranged attack. And what do you gain? 5 health, 1 speed, 1 to all defenses, and 1 ammo. So the Witchdoctor can definitely survive better, and is much more mobile. But I don't think its worth the extra cost and loss of Curse. Its a close fight though, so I'll probably try them out sometime!
  
  Final thoughts
  
  Hunter OP. Seriously blows the Bowman away. However, I think this is partly due to the Bowman just not being good enough as well.
  
  I like all 3 new neutral units, and 2/3 of the lawful and unscrupulous units. So definitely looking forward to playing with them. Going to try lawful first to see how Discipline builds work out.

[Snowbird Games]

Thanks a lot! Very detailed and some very good points. We'll try to get our designer to reply to this.

Keep them coming, if you happen to have some time :)

[wyldmage]

Didn't expect the Snowbird reply :D

Played through a random map for a while with Hunter + Triarii (2/ea) with a Scout. Just hired a Sorceress as well. Still just playing around. But Triarii do feel a lot like Pikemen. Great potential, but also pretty squishy.

Next game I start I'll try out the Flagellents, with a Wisewoman for healing. Maybe go Commander and mix in some Woodsmen.

Looking at the upgrade options for your EA forum (not steam), I think Skirmisher + Triarii looks really fun too. Great synergy.

I really hope that with how much fun these new units look to be that the old stuff gets some updating to be less sad/boring (looking at the Brigand, Militiaman, and Swordsman).

My one piece of input though is that higher difficulty is really punishing to melee units (the extra hp on neutral units means your melee units get counter-attacked more, and for more damage on average. So the higher up difficulty goes, the better archer strategies become (though they are very binary, you either win before the enemy reaches you, or you lose completely).

But that's more about how the difficulty scale affects things.

[Lampros]

Sorry for the necro, but where can I find the list of these new units?