Are velites useless?

[bunny32794]

Shorter range, cost around as much as archers, actually more expensive to maintain, and around as much damage as arrows.

There must be something I'm missing.

[Armchair Civilian]

Mostly useless unless throwing stuff into the rear of phalanx type units. Mostly.

[bunny32794]

Originally posted by The Winking Skeever:

Mostly useless unless throwing stuff into the rear of phalanx type units. Mostly.

I know the weakness of phalanxes in the flank and rear (doing testing in custom battles I've found Armored Hoplites can pretty much face a whole half-stack of archers from the front and take like 3 casualties), but then again why use velites for the task? Attacking from the flank or rear is hardly something only velites can do, and archers arguably have more flexibility since their range means they can stand behind a wall of melee infantry and shoot diagonoally ("shoot the man to your right" is a trick one forum taught me, placing all archers on the left side of the army), wheras velites will pretty much need to be a whole 90 degres from the axis of advance to be safe.

That brings up another thing about velites; they can never seem to let looose their javelins before enemy troops reach them. In real life velites would run up to the enemy and loose their javelins using the momentum of the run to add to their power, but here they just run into range, stop, take out their javelins, wind up, aim, and then FINALLY actually throw them. In real life running would eliminate all but the last step.

I don't want to seem like I'm ranting with all the writing I've done, but I'm just unsure of myself. I trust in developers to have done playtesting and balancing, so if I come across a unit that seems redundant at best and a liability at worst I can't help but feel there's something I'm missing.

That being said, one unit guide did share my opinion that archers>>>>>>velites any day, so maybe it's not just me.

[hoonii]

NO. Velites are the king of the early game. You stand your ground while velites rain enemies with their javelins. They cause great casualties if you know how to use'em. Also velites can be used for close combat. You can't expect the archers to beat down spear warbands. Velites are EXCELLENT for flanking attacks if you don't have any cav. Also they are excellent against elephants, chariots etc. A single velite unit can beatdown the entire British chariots(if they are in cover of course.) You can't expect archers to one shot chariots. Of course archers are better than velites, but if you are facing Britannia or easterners, at least 2 units of velites(later Light Auxilia) are needed. You can use Cavalry Auxilia instead of velites but they are not the same as the velites.

[bunny32794]

Originally posted by Hoonie:

NO. Velites are the king of the early game. You stand your ground while velites rain enemies with their javelins. They cause great casualties if you know how to use'em. Also velites can be used for close combat. You can't expect the archers to beat down spear warbands. Velites are EXCELLENT for flanking attacks if you don't have any cav. Also they are excellent against elephants, chariots etc. A single velite unit can beatdown the entire British chariots(if they are in cover of course.) You can't expect archers to one shot chariots. Of course archers are better than velites, but if you are facing Britannia or easterners, at least 2 units of velites(later Light Auxilia) are needed. You can use Cavalry Auxilia instead of velites but they are not the same as the velites.

So use them as an anti elephant/chariot specialist and flankers? I'm sticking with archers, but at least that's something.

[LovelyRoo]

They are very good at killing elephants and chariots. That's about it.

[Jambie Lionheart]

Nah, valites are kinda useless, but only cuz their range is super short... as opposed to rather short >.> I have Hestati, and principes and the post marius troops, who needs valites...

[bunny32794]

Originally posted by }P.B{ CtMurphy:

Nah, valites are kinda useless, but only cuz their range is super short... as opposed to rather short >.> I have Hestati, and principes and the post marius troops, who needs valites...

Yeah. One of my big hang-ups with velites is that they seem really redundant considering roman legionaires have pila, not to mention that pila are armor-piercing while javelins are not.

[EoNightcore]

Originally posted by bunny32794:

Originally posted by }P.B{ CtMurphy:

Nah, valites are kinda useless, but only cuz their range is super short... as opposed to rather short >.> I have Hestati, and principes and the post marius troops, who needs valites...

Yeah. One of my big hang-ups with velites is that they seem really redundant considering roman legionaires have pila, not to mention that pila are armor-piercing while javelins are not.

They are redundant. However, velites can carry several javelins, compared to the 2 pilas carried by roman heavy infantry, so they can still continue to deal missile damage.

I like to recruit some as missile troops, because the alternative is nothing... at least until I can recruit archers.

[Jambie Lionheart]

Originally posted by EoNightcore:

Originally posted by bunny32794:

Yeah. One of my big hang-ups with velites is that they seem really redundant considering roman legionaires have pila, not to mention that pila are armor-piercing while javelins are not.

They are redundant. However, velites can carry several javelins, compared to the 2 pilas carried by roman heavy infantry, so they can still continue to deal missile damage.

I like to recruit some as missile troops, because the alternative is nothing... at least until I can recruit archers.

True, but the pila also have more impact. 2 volleys is pritty good considering that. The only time I use valites is if I know I need to kill elephants, but honestly I prefer archers and their flaming arrows. Why kill them when you can send them beserk instead (which is far easier, by the way). Valites have to outnumber elephants two units to one in order to have a chance at victory against them.

Carthage can't produce Elephants if you take Carthage's capital away from it quickly, before it become a large or huge city. So ya never really need roman valites. They make good sword fodder an missile bait though.

[bunny32794]

It's also worth noting that it's very difficult for me to use velites as historically; put them in front of my troops and the enemy is upon them before the first volley. The only milage I get out of them is by using them as very short range archers i.e. behind the main line, but this feels grossly ahistorical to me and feels just wrong.

[cdavy343]

Well I think it depends on how you use them and who you are going against/playing as. They're pretty good early game if you have infantry that can hold theirs in position and cavalry to clear out their archers. Then you can swing them around and have them shoot the enemy in the back or sides which is where they are most effective(obviously not firing into readied shields is deadlier). It's even better when you're Rome and your infantry all fires when they turn to chase your missile units away which means they get shot in the back regardless of what they do. It's pretty game breaking on any difficulty but the highest and even then unless they have better cavalry or your infantry routes quickly it is super easy in most battles.

[Daxypoo]

velites are excellent for early romans who havent had marian reforms and, thus, access to long range missiles

they are especially useful against phalanx; they can pelt from behind your line- boring; or they can maneuver from flanks and disrupt enemy lines and rear charge when necessary

they are just a little better defended than archers and their javelin volleys seems to hurt infantry units faster