Ideal Spear Build?

[damian]

So I have a conundrum... I keep wanting to make a Goddess Athena spear character... but I am not sure what the ideal combination would be for that.

Seems like some combination of HUNTING - DEFENSE - DREAM - ROGUE are the main choices.

Warden seem to be the most obvious choice. Thing is I have a problem with hunting mastery: I actually hate study prey and call of the hunt. The idea of high cost buffs which only last a few seconds pisses me off. I absolutely hated constantly refreshing plague on soothsayer and I am loathe to repeat that annoying playstyle.

But the amount of pierce damage and damage reduction hunting mastery gives, along with the passives... its pretty hard to ignore.

Haruspex I dunno... I feel like Defense offers more than Dream but I could be wrong.

So Templar seems like it could be pretty thematically "Athenian" and there is nothing STOPPING it from using a spear. I don't see it doing as much damage per thrust, but with shield charge, batter, and phantom strike it will have better AOE than any of the hunters. I imagine Templar is even tankier than warden or at least tied with it.

Then as weird options that nobody talks about much: Corsair or Dreamkiller

I don't think I have ever seen a build or any theory on either of these which leads me to believe they just don't measure up. But I also know rogue enjoyed years of being though of as useless...

[MedeaFleecestealer]

Simple answer, then simply don't use those skills. You can still play the game and get to the end of Legendary without them. I don't use them either; I don't like Study Prey making foes head straight for me and Call of the Hunt just has too long a cooldown for my liking.

Thing is Hunting is the only mastery which gives you any skills specifically designed for spear users with Take Down and Spear Dance.

There's certainly nothing to stop you making a spear using Templar.

[damian]

Ah well I don't have Atlantis so Spear Dance isn't an option. But point well taken! Let me look at what hunting offers sans the timed buffs/debuffs

Volley 16% 3x attack (pretty sexy)

Woodlore 222 DA (good in normal I guess?)
24% attack speed (offsets slow spears)

Art of Hunt 75% pierce (very nice)
48% bleed (meh)
30 damage to beastmen/animals (big meh)
25% avoid projectiles (very nice)
18 movement speed (kinda nice)
100% trap reduction (also nice)

and Dream for comparison:

Lucid Dream 28% phys damage
45% vit
45% elec burn

111 DA
111 OA

12% total speed
15% avoid projectiles
28% slow resist

Trance of Conv
15% damage absorb
12 health regen
3 energy regen

Psion Touch
96% total damage
87 vitality damage
150 elec burn damage
30% slow
35% damage to demon

and Rogue:

Blade Honing 56% pierce
15 Pierce Dmg

Calculated Stri
156% damage
103 pierce damage
33% chance 95% pierce

Envenom 393 Poison Damage over 3 seconds
70% Poison Damage
50% Slowed for 5 seconds
+100% Poison Damage with +200% Improved Duration
70% Chance to Fumble Attacks for 3 seconds
28% Chance of 1.8 - 6.5 seconds of Confusion

Looking at it like this: stacking the pierce% with Brigand is pretty insane. I watched Clex's analysis of bow brigand and it really looks fragile, so I imagine the spear brigand is doubly so. But holy crap, that spear damage must be insane. No aoe....

[MedeaFleecestealer]

Yeah, Brigand can get high DPS, but is a bit of a glass cannon. Also ghosts/undead are pretty resistant to piece/poison damage.

Hunting also has Herbal Remedy for more health regen and poison resistance. You have to recast it periodically, but when maxed it lasts a fair time before you need to.

[damian]

I am actually pretty intrigued by Corsair as a sort of compromise.

It gets -nearly- as much pierce% and it has a LMB which offers a hell of a lot more every few hits.

So it has all the nice lazy passive benefits of poisons and shield procs, and batter/shield charge.

So I think a corsair won't be stabbing as rapidly as a warden, but it will occasionally be hitting much harder.

Dream is sorta all over the place with the electrical burn and vit damage. It seems like you can't really commit 100% to making a build around either so they don't synergize super well with any sort of melee. Like if I was making an elec burn melee I would be using rune mastery.

[MedeaFleecestealer]

Well, give it a try and see how it goes. Just because there are no guides for a spear Corsair doesn't mean you can't have fun with it just the same.

[karakat]

You need a hunt or a dream to reduce resistances, using pierce damage without RR is masochism.
Hunting generally gives too much for a spear, even without study prey.
So you can make haruspex and use ToW instead of SP.
If you want ideal spear build you will need Warden with SP, CotH, Rally and Quick Recovery pressing.

[ninakoru]

The problem with Rogue is that doesn't provide extra health/DA/OA/resistances unlike other classes. Their skills however are pretty powerful. Even then, is considered glass cannon and certainly not a top tier class to mix with. They have their ways thanks to mandrake/knives/traps, but will always remain squishier than other classes.

Going on a spear focus without hunting is such a miss I wouldn't event consider discarding it.

My top pick would be Hunting/Dream with Hunting/Defense as a close second. Dream may have a bit of everything, three damage types to work with and all that, but still can provide an attack replacer, solid defenses, stats, damage absorption... you can still focus on phys. + pierce and go big damage with spear.

[slayor3000]

With Rogue lots of physical,poison,pierce damage.
As with using Defence perfect synergy of attribute points so more dex/ da.
Undead are a real pain, you definitely need to supplement with elemental damage somehow.

Dream has ToW a great debuff and it is up constantly, it affects all resistances.
Lucid Dream and synegies have to take and even the extra movement from Temporal Flux and Trail Blazing can keep you out of harms way quickly.
Distort Reality for mob control.

Defence, well just to many skills between the 2 for making a perfect Spear build.
Write up on this build would be just to long.
Just also remember with Take Down and Shield Charge you have 2 great skills to take care of creatures like annoying Machae Grand Master Archers and Dactyls.

If you want to use Study Prey differently than others may do, then do what I do and gather up a crowd and lay it at my feet. You should have debuffed the whole mob and it does last long enough that way.

My choice would be Warden, but if you do not enjoy having so many active skills to use and it can get a bit button crazy at later levels.

If you are not going to be bothered with bow or throw weapons then you should also consider Warfare/ Slayer.
Remember spears are very slow weapons you really have to use Hunt to make them "worthwhile", you add Warfare they get even faster plus you have Onslaught.

[Elriadon]

If you want to use a spear, you want Hunting mastery. It gives you too much to ignore it. While Study Prey and Call of the Hunt are very powerful, you can also do without them.

Warden is probably the strongest class on Legendary difficulty, but its imo a bit boring to play until later and takes some time to come into their own.

Haruspex is honestly the most beginner-friendly option. It starts off very strong and stays strong. On Normal, Trance of Wrath basically wins fights for you and afterwards, you can switch to Trance of Convalesce for survivability if you need to. Also with Haruspex you can easily respec to a ranged build if you want. Also, if you don't like Study Prey and Call of the Hunt, Dream will provide active abilities that might be more suitable for you. Honestly, Hunting and Dream synergize extremely well and this combination is IMO the most fun to play.

As for Brigand... well, yeah, they have great DPS. However, they die very quickly and you're gonna hate facing off against undead.

[damian]

Thank you guys for input. Yeah it really seems hunting was just designed to support spears. Maybe if I just use study prey on bosses it will annoy me less.

Now slayer is an option I didn't even consider. I guess I wrote warfare off as "the sword support" but as you said onslaught DOES work with a spear and its a hell of a lot better than psionic/calculated.

I know this is exactly what I was trying to avoid (because I like passives) but... I imagine stacking battle standard with study prey and call of the hunt... well that just sounds obscene against a boss. I understand why they call it "slayer" Zero aoe, just single-target pierce murder.

With battle rage/crushing blow + ardor stacking with volley and wood lore, I imagine Slayer is the fastest option for number of spear strikes per second as well as running speed.

I never hear anyone sing the praises of War Wind... is that because of the mana cost?

Ok so let me see if I can sum these up succinctly:

Warden: Tanky late-bloomer with really nice passives

Brigand: Single target pierce/poison specialist with some utility

Slayer: Single target physical speed striker and boss destroyer

Haruspex : All around utility and quality of life. Best AOE potential for spear.

(Note on Dream: I am a little unclear on how "total damage" functions. If this means what I think it does: it takes your pierce damage and multiplies that. If that is the case then Psionic Touch is stronger than I thought.

[MedeaFleecestealer]

Total damage just means all types of damage be it pierce, fire, poison, etc. Whatever damage you're dishing out it'll multiply it.

[damian]

The thing which occurred to me looking at Slayer is that they might make an excellent W-swap melee/range hybrid since onslaught actually works with bows. So they don't have the nice aoe smacks like batter and phantom strike, but their spear strikes physical damage is boosted.

I suppose all spears DO have that physical component so warfare buffs the hell out of something every weapon is gonna have (unlike say poison which is not a damage type you really want to build an entire class around)

So slayer (the way I am envisioning it) is almost the opposite of warden. Instead of closing the distance fast and battering groups of mobs, you are drawing them to -you- chunking down their health with arrows, then jabbing them to finish them off when they get into your melee.

[slayor3000]

Originally posted by damian:

The thing which occurred to me looking at Slayer is that they might make an excellent W-swap melee/range hybrid since onslaught actually works with bows. So they don't have the nice aoe smacks like batter and phantom strike, but their spear strikes physical damage is boosted.

I suppose all spears DO have that physical component so warfare buffs the hell out of something every weapon is gonna have (unlike say poison which is not a damage type you really want to build an entire class around)

So slayer (the way I am envisioning it) is almost the opposite of warden. Instead of closing the distance fast and battering groups of mobs, you are drawing them to -you- chunking down their health with arrows, then jabbing them to finish them off when they get into your melee.

Spears and Bows damage are boosted by Strength. Strength increases physical damage from bow/ spear, dexterity increases pierce and bleeding damage

[karakat]

You can't scale well both physical and piercing damage, in any case, you have to choose one. For phys damage you want 1,5k+ str, for pierce 1k dex and pierce damage legandaries.
Ofc you can make bow slayer(onslaught+marksmanship work amazing) and use spear only for bosses, but it seems like you wanted spear build.
Best aoe spear class is warden, batter, shield charge and spear dance with some recharge.
Slayer with warwind and speardance is a little worse.
Haruspex, is not my aoe choise.
If you want something extraordinary, you can consider the option of elemental damage dragon hunter, but again, a bow is much better here.

[damian]

Originally posted by karakat:

You can't scale well both physical and piercing damage, in any case, you have to choose one. For phys damage you want 1,5k+ str, for pierce 1k dex and pierce damage legandaries.
Ofc you can make bow slayer(onslught+marksmanship work amazing) and use spear only for bosses, but it seems like you wanted spear build.
Best aoe spear class is warden, batter, shield charge and spear dance with some recharge.
Slayer with warwind and speardance is a little worse.
Haruspex, is not my aoe choise.

Ok I think I understand what you mean.

Has anyone tried a 1:1 ratio of evenly raising STR/DEX so you get the benefits of everything slayer has to offer?

I am just thinking since both bow and spear damage is calculated by two stats, then raising both stats makes the weapon better all around. Plus the extra dex means you theoretically more evasive, right?

The alternative to this is just making a pure STR based conqueror who uses a spear and forgetting about the pierce component entirely if it's actually a negligible % of the overall damage you are dealing.

I mean I know that IDEALLY you are just supposed to be using a fast sword with conqueror, but it seems like the pros of warfare tree are still valid for any melee even if you aren't using the optimal weapon.