Dual wield chance can now reach 101%?

[wulfster42]

I did the math, and if you have enough +skill equipment to max all your dual wield skills, the total chance to hit with both weapons would now be 101%, so does that mean you always hit with both weapons now? I'm playing Rune+Nature, but trying to decide between shield or dual wield (or shield and 1 point in dual wield to switch off between them, giving me most of the advantages for 1 point).

In the process I decided to check out what the max % chance to hit with both weapons, and it looks like it's over 100% now. Not sure if that actually works that way, or if each has it's own set chance, and what order is determined (and can multiples go off at once?).

i mean Reckless gives +100% total damage, pretty sweet, but then you have the one that hits 3 enemies as well, can they both go off at the same time? The one that hits 2 enemies and the one that hit 3, both have a 15% chance, can they both go off and hit 5 enemies, and then you have a 25% chance to get the 100% total damage bonus as well?

It's very confusing, but also a huge reason for someone to play a berserker....may be some of the highest melee damage outputs available.

Thinking your defenses would be sorely missing though, but it is interesting to contemplate just the same.

Just warefare can get to a 75% chance though, so 3 out of 4 hits would be dual weapons (so basically 7 attacks every 4 swings vs 8, or..without the bonus damage from the actual dual wield ability....87% of the damage. The 25% total damage mod though....boosts that a bit as well, probably making it so a pure warrior (without a bonus to damage from whatever other mastery you take), would be only doing maybe 70% as much damage.

I'm trying to determine what other tree would really give much more defenses to warfare dual wield though, i mean you could get a tank, heals, etc. Dream etc might give regen, but I don't see anything really great defensive wise, so why not just optimize damage?

[Pannathrax]

what is your calculation that makes up 101%?

as far as i know each proc happen in sequence and not together, so first skill activates, and then the next skill activates, it can happen really quick if you have a high attack speed, but it does not happen at the exact same time.

[Neccarus]

As I have been led to believe proc chance is multiplicative not additive. Take 2 skills with a 22% chance of activating, the formula looks like this: 1−((1−0.22)×(1−0.22)) = 0.3916...
Which is roughly a 39% chance of proccing either skill. Doing this multiplicative math will never get you to 100% unless the skill itself has a 100% chance of proccing. As I understand it this is also how damage absorption works.

[wulfster42]

Hmmmm, interesting.

Well the numbers with maxed skills are something like this:

Dual wield skill maxed 30% chance to DW
Each of the other Warfare DW skills 15% to DW
Reckless offense 27% chance to DW

If it was additive that is 30% + 45% + 27% for a total of 102%.

With the above formula though....ugh that is going to be annoying to figure out in my head one sec.

Ok, so it would be 68% chance of activating I guess?

Also makes Reckless much less useful to be honest, since it doesn't actually end up adding nearly as much of a chance to DW....although if the +100% total damage can go off with the other ones, then it totally still rocks.

Otherwise just warefare skills maxed give you a 57% chance to dual wield, so a net difference of 11% from Rune tree all together. Some other bonuses from rune, but if that was the big sell for your character (as you still want crit hits so not using runic weapons etc), it doesn't seem as great.

Now if you have a 27% chance for each attack to do 100% additional total damage though (along with an 11% over all chance for it to be a DW attacks), then that ends up being a significant over all damage increase...and still quite worth it.

[rakshir]

I've seen multiple posts saying that the dual wield proc chances are multiplicative (and the shield procs as well). However, I'm 95% sure they were additive before the AE and I don't recall ever reading patch notes saying that this had changed. Just saying I'd test it before assuming that those posts are correct. If they are, indeed, additive, then over one hundred percent shoud still equal one hundred percent chance to proc something. But percentages of each individual proc start to go down.

[wulfster42]

Yeah, testing would certainly be hard. in addition though, reckless seems to by far add the most damage, increases total damage by 100% and hitting with both weapons (not 400% damage?).

While some of the others can hit 2 or 3 enemies, and in such cases the damage might be more over all, vs individual bosses etc, you get more bang for your buck from reckless by far.

So if the other procs actually get in the way of Reckless going off (if there is an order they are checked and only one can be in effect at a time (i don't t hink the hit 2 enemies and 3 enemies one for instance combine to hit 5 enemies), then you could actually end up better off with JUST reckless. It maxes at a 27% chance, but you get the 100% total damage every time. Compared to the others for single target damage, that could be the same as hitting with both weapons 54% of the time (since you do double damage when you do every time), which basically the same damage bonus as all of the warfare dual wield skills maxed (just don't get the ability to hit multiple enemies.

You do get Thunderstrike though, so that kinda takes care of multiple enemies anyway.

There used to be this serious board that focused on Titanquest mechanics, but i have not played for so long, not sure if it ever exists, could even be confusing it with Sacred tbh, but people did tons of tests etc to figure out how things worked.

I finally decided on my Rune/Nature to go with shield primarily and alt weapon slot 2 daggers, just with 1 point into reckless, when I want to use thunderstrike on large groups of enemies etc. Gives the best of both worlds (Attack speed is higher with 1 weapon/shield eventually anyway, negating a large part of the bonus from reckless).

I do like my wolves but they are dying fast still (have not done the act 1 side quest to double their hp, but i'm thinking that isn't going ot help that much). I guess Energy shield will eventually but i won't be getting that for a long time.

I may make an advanced character (starts at 40), once i get up to 40 with this one and switch to either runic + defense or possibly Runic + hunter (since I'm going throwing + shield).

Both have large advantages, but since I'm planning on going runic weapons, I'm thinking Runic + defense is probably the best bet long term. May be the most defensive combination in the game at this point....but still has good damage potential.

[Neccarus]

I love my Runesmith. Tanks well enough and hits like a truck on steroids. My level 37 Hauruspex has about 450ish dps, my 38 Runesmith has about 1060 with Runeweapon maxed.

[Pannathrax]

but it does not add up that way, when dual wield tree trigger, hew may not happen and tumult can happen, it is a random proc not all together, they act individually.

and reckless definitely act individually from dual wield tree since it is a different set of skill.

if you have more skill to proc, it means you can trigger more skill and less time using single hit, but those multihit does not add up and guarantee a 100% chance.

[rulikstanislav]

pannathrax said it correctly...

every single proc chance is randomly "!" taken [ meaning there is no order] and triggered independently/individually [ meaning there is no stacking whatsoever] out of 100% "swing of your weapon/LMB/basic attack (pick a word) " leading to -> if = YES/NO.

in another words - every skill is picked just one per one action/swing of a weapon, if that one particular skill is not 100% (replacing your basic/LMB) then every single skill 1-99% is still random proc - meaning that your % numbers of a skill(s) reffer to frequency of a trigger(s).
higher the chance to proc the skill, higher frequency of a trigger/use of that skill.

more skill proc chances you have is absolutely irrelevant because you can always use only ONE! - so there is no stacking of your proc chances among trigger skill(s) at all...
more skill procs you have just means that you have more chances/choices to use/trigger a skill
coming from a 100% depending on a % frequency to use a skill
- do not mistaken a trigger skill (chance to use a skill) with trigger affix (1-99% chance to deal a damage... or whatever) = the mechanic is entirely different.

even if you would have 50% hew / 50% cross cut / 50% tumult - you do not add them or multiply them = they always stay 50% , period. -> because only one is used per action -> hence the words "random and individual" ...

[Neccarus]

You pretty much just reworded my answer lol

[Genitor]

as many already said the proc is multiplicative. So if you have every proc maxed they will basically compete with each other. Means that you might not get as many procs of "tumult" if you have "cross-cut" maxed than if you had only 1 point in "cross-cut" because occassionally "cross-cut" will now proc when "tumult" would have happened instead. I think you get the idea...


However, i am pretty sure its worth maxing em all. If you are at that point and have + skills gear you are basically not doing "normal" attacks anymore which is just mad fun and also supereffective.

I cam here to the forum to ask a slightly different question but it kind of plays into this one so i will try my chances:

I wonder if "crushing blow" (lvl 10 skill; first upgrade to "Battle Rage") interveres in this way with the other procs. Does "Crushing blow" have an animation (if it has it will probably intervere if not probably not; my logics at least)

Because i think "Crushing Blow" might be quite underrated. When it interveres i will skip it alltogether and go with the remaining procs but if it does not intervere its definitely a nice addition and i am currently playing a build that has the skillpoints to spend (i never had enough of them to really work with "Crushing blow" so i never tested it.

Also: If "Crushing Blow" does not intervere i wonder if the additional damage from "Crushing Blow" can be applied to multiple targets if you are having a proc of "Tumult" at the same time (then i would say that "Crushing Blow" is even quite strong in my build)

Hope you dual-wield-specialists can help me out. If not i will just create a new discussion.

Thanks in advance!

[Neccarus]

I dont know for sure but the way I understood Crushing blow was that all attacks with a mace (and axe in AE) have a chance to stun and the bonus stun damage works to increase the duration of ALL stuns. (Think Paladin with extended thunderball stuns...)

[Genitor]

you confuse "Crushing blow" with "Concussive Blow". I speak of "Crushing Blow" Lvl 10; Warfare (1st upgrade to "Battle Rage")
http://titanquest.wikia.com/wiki/Crushing_Blow

[Neccarus]

Woops you're right. That one procs while battle rage is active as bonus damage. And ues it will proc with DW attacks

[Neccarus]

It's like Volativity from the earth tree that can proc on any attack or skill(not sure if the presence of fire is neccessary since it also affects physical damage). It is purely bonus damage not another attack altogether.

[Neccarus]

This also makes me realize that a battlemage could have some pretty impressive criticals...