SIFU - Will you wait for it come to steam or will you buy on EPIC?

[Friends with Benedicts]

Ill wait for steam release. While EGS seems to be trying to improve it still insists on earning "customers" via blackmailing and hostage situations instead of healthy competition (for us customers at least). So I still will not support this kind of behavior, at least not when it lacks a robust community features as steam has, and preferably workshop functionality.

[Momo]

Since there is a 10 euros discount I already bought on epic, because... why not? It works properly, I don't need to relay on steam for everything.

[vukotlak]

grrusa の投稿を引用：

However, Epic is not doing it to support devs which would not be able to finish and release their game without EGS deal - just take a look at the list of EGS exclusivities so far - these are games EGS picked as suitable exclusivity hostages, regardless of whether the devs needed the deal to by able to finance the development.

Hostages....

What is wrong with your thoughts. Hostages... FFS what the hell.

Epic is not holding anyone hostage. They offer money for exclusivity. MCDonald is not holding the "BigMac" as hostage. It is their "product" Epic helped Sloclap to develop Sifu and they made it exclusiv. THERE is no ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ HOSTAGE. It is a normal buisness practic.

You don't need to like Epic. But they are not holding anyone as HOSTAGE. What a wierd understanding you people have.

BTW as many have already said this before. STEAM could easaly stop this situation by offering the Devs a better deal.

[Snort Cannon]

grrusa の投稿を引用：

vukotlak の投稿を引用：

Supporting Devs so they can make awesome games is a big "PRO EPIC" . I dunno If Sloclap could had produced such a quality Game without the help of EPIC. Since steam does not rely on exclusivity they are not doing anything for DEVS. They are the biggest fish and they know that. They don't need to support Devs actively and so they don't. That is also a big showcase of how you treat your fans. How good could the games become if Steam would actively support the devs creating it. But reality is Steam does not care for quality at all. Just look how they boosted Alxc cause it is a way to promote Steam VR headset. They could help other devs to create absolutly amazing games. But they aren't.

Sifu is the Best game i have played in over a decade. Not exxagerating here. I am stil playing it every day. If you wanna wait for steam release it's fine. You can support the devs then. But you should keep in mind that some games might not even exist without the help of Epic.
Steam is not pro customer nor pro devs. They only care for themself.

Epic is actively supporting devs. If they do it to win customer or not is not important. Fact is that they are actively helping Devs to make games. And steam is not. Easy as that.

You are making one good point I have been omitting - although the EGS business model is gamer-hostile as a whole, in financing devs it actually occasionally indirectly brings additional value to gamers to by making a good game available (although on EGS only) which otherwise might not exist at all.

However, Epic is not doing it to support devs which would not be able to finish and release their game without EGS deal - just take a look at the list of EGS exclusivities so far - these are games EGS picked as suitable exclusivity hostages, regardless of whether the devs needed the deal to by able to finance the development.

So, occasional great game brought to life only thanks to EGS deal is just a side effect, while beneficial to gamers, it does not outweight the negative impact of EGS gamer-hostile business model - simply because Epic is giving devs part of the money (minus EGS profit) gained by not investing into features for gamers and extorting revenues by exclusivity deals. In the end it is gamers who are paying devs through EGS, EGS is just limitting gamers' freedom of choice in the process. Nothing to be grateful for to Epic from a gamer perspective really.

It is not true Steam does nothing for devs - Steam offers them well established marketplace with many features and access to large pool of potential customers. Investing into potentially good game projects is a role of publishers - there are many around and even if all of them are blind to how great some project is there are many crowdfunding providers too which allow gamers to directly support what they want to come to life. It is not like the EGS is the last and only hope of independent devs. EGS is just taking the choice from gamers and making the decision in their stead trying to force them to cover the costs - gamer-hostile as I believe I have already mentioned.

For Steam, gamers are customers, the service is tailored to their needs and preferences, and devs/publishers are business partners. For EGS, devs are customers and gamers are natural resource to be harvested. Even when I try to look at it from devs percpective, I would prefer Steam's laissez faire over EGS subsidies and restrictions any day.

You literally have no idea what you're talking about. You're just regurgitating the Anti Epic sentiments without having any idea what any of it means.

First of all, saying that they are not helping the devs is so wrong is laughable. Epic chooses really out there projects and gives them a safety net, something Steam not only does not provide it actually makes them fall face first into hard concrete. Implying they're hostages is so stupid, I honestly cannot believe someone would even say that. There's plenty of stories of people refusing Epic deals, so it's not done at gunpoint.

Steam being the sole app for gaming would be the worst imaginable outcome out there. It's already a terrible app, imagine if there was no competition, they wouldn't even bother to fix anything. EGS needed something to fight Steam with and they saw an opportunity and took it. Remember Tim Sweeney told Valve that they would stop with Exclusives if steam took a lesser cut, so the ball was in Valve's court since 2018.

Steam does not offer anything of the sort. Once you put your game onto steam, you have to fight the fight of your life to get the game to be noticed. You have to take it outside sources like twitter, tiktok, reddit for people to notice your game, cause Valve hasn't heard what the word curation means. I've known many dev that were indie and made games that were well regarded, but steam dug their graves by pushing them so far down the trash hole that there was no way of digging out. So steam is the place where most indies go to die.

[Taran Tatsuuchi]

Epic didn't even have a shopping cart until last december...

That's a pretty basic customer convenience that should be standard.
But, it wasn't there for.... What? almost 2 years?


Epic has shown they aren't willing to invest in making their store feature competitive with other storefronts.

[Friends with Benedicts]

vukotlak の投稿を引用：

BTW as many have already said this before. STEAM could easaly stop this situation by offering the Devs a better deal.

Im sorry sir, but you're using a fallacy. They do not choose to be exclusive to EPIC due to the 12% cut instead of the usual 30% (which EVERY STOREFRONT USES, NOT JUST STEAM). They choose to be exclusive solely because of UPFRONT money EPIC offers. Nothing to do with the cut as they are happy to sell their games on Steam whenever.

Also, I could easily spin your argument around into: EPIC could easaly stop this situation by offering the customers a better storefront.

[Friends with Benedicts]

Snort Cannon の投稿を引用：

Steam being the sole app for gaming would be the worst imaginable outcome out there. It's already a terrible app, imagine if there was no competition, they wouldn't even bother to fix anything.

While I agree with u that competition is always needed, many of steam features exist way before it had any competition. Also, how is it "already a terrible app". There's literally not a single better storefront. The very fact we are having this argument on Steam, and not on GOG, ORIGIN, UPLAY, EGS or any other for that matter already goes to show steam has more features. Oh, the irony...

Snort Cannon の投稿を引用：

EGS needed something to fight Steam with and they saw an opportunity and took it. Remember Tim Sweeney told Valve that they would stop with Exclusives if steam took a lesser cut, so the ball was in Valve's court since 2018.

Imagine 2 super markets competing against each other. One has 2 workers and products are horribly displayed and without any logic to it since there's only 2 ppl working in the whole supermarket. The other one has 30 workers, but spend much more money keeping everything in order.

Now the trasher super market challenges the other to "drop their prices" when it obviously will make more because it spends less on the service it offers.

That is exactly why EGS takes a lesser cut. Because they don't spend any money at all on keeping features that would require more workers, such as having an active community for all their games. Imagine if they tried to have a working workshop. Pfft.

Snort Cannon の投稿を引用：

Steam does not offer anything of the sort. Once you put your game onto steam, you have to fight the fight of your life to get the game to be noticed. You have to take it outside sources like twitter, tiktok, reddit for people to notice your game, cause Valve hasn't heard what the word curation means. I've known many dev that were indie and made games that were well regarded, but steam dug their graves by pushing them so far down the trash hole that there was no way of digging out. So steam is the place where most indies go to die.

By now it's clear you just hate steam as much as some people hate EPIC. I try to look at a bigger picture, and none of them are my friend, they are companies. But you are just saying things that aren't true. ALL GAMES INVEST IN MARKETING. If you want to just release a game on a platform and let the platform make you successful you're wild beyond reality. Every thing, every product, every thing you want to sell you need to market about it. Doesn't matter the scope, even if it's some brownies you're making you need to advertise for it. That's the age we live in. Every game will need social media recognition. And that recognition will never be on par with it's actual quality if compared to competitors. It's mostly it's reach and buzz.

Also, steam has shown me THOUSANDS of GOOD QUALITY indie games over the years. And it regularly holds events with demos of upcoming indies. You literally don't know this probably because YOU DONT TAKE INTEREST in smaller games. It's your fault, no Steam's.

Am I saying steam couldn't improve? Hell no, IT SHOULD improve. But saying EPIC is doing better for indie's recognition? I'm sorry, Steam does MUCH MORE work to make GOOD INDIES come into the surface. How do you think I know EVERSPACE, STONESHARD, SPACE HAVEN, GHOSTRUNNER, FIGHTS IN TIGHT SPACES just to name a few? All of them I got to know through these steam events.

You clearly are talking about a subject you don't understand very much. And I'm a graduated student on game designing. Although I never worked with it, since I just model things, I had a lot of contact with indie devs, and even indie brazilian devs, like the creator of the Schumps game. You ALWAYS need to advertise heavily your games, it has nothing to do with steam, and GOG or EGS NEVER told me about any indie games events, contrary to what Steam does.

[Snort Cannon]

Friends with Benedicts の投稿を引用：

Snort Cannon の投稿を引用：

Steam being the sole app for gaming would be the worst imaginable outcome out there. It's already a terrible app, imagine if there was no competition, they wouldn't even bother to fix anything.

While I agree with u that competition is always needed, many of steam features exist way before it had any competition. Also, how is it "already a terrible app". There's literally not a single better storefront. The very fact we are having this argument on Steam, and not on GOG, ORIGIN, UPLAY, EGS or any other for that matter already goes to show steam has more features. Oh, the irony...

Snort Cannon の投稿を引用：

EGS needed something to fight Steam with and they saw an opportunity and took it. Remember Tim Sweeney told Valve that they would stop with Exclusives if steam took a lesser cut, so the ball was in Valve's court since 2018.

Imagine 2 super markets competing against each other. One has 2 workers and products are horribly displayed and without any logic to it since there's only 2 ppl working in the whole supermarket. The other one has 30 workers, but spend much more money keeping everything in order.

Now the trasher super market challenges the other to "drop their prices" when it obviously will make more because it spends less on the service it offers.

That is exactly why EGS takes a lesser cut. Because they don't spend any money at all on keeping features that would require more workers, such as having an active community for all their games. Imagine if they tried to have a working workshop. Pfft.

Snort Cannon の投稿を引用：

Steam does not offer anything of the sort. Once you put your game onto steam, you have to fight the fight of your life to get the game to be noticed. You have to take it outside sources like twitter, tiktok, reddit for people to notice your game, cause Valve hasn't heard what the word curation means. I've known many dev that were indie and made games that were well regarded, but steam dug their graves by pushing them so far down the trash hole that there was no way of digging out. So steam is the place where most indies go to die.

By now it's clear you just hate steam as much as some people hate EPIC. I try to look at a bigger picture, and none of them are my friend, they are companies. But you are just saying things that aren't true. ALL GAMES INVEST IN MARKETING. If you want to just release a game on a platform and let the platform make you successful you're wild beyond reality. Every thing, every product, every thing you want to sell you need to market about it. Doesn't matter the scope, even if it's some brownies you're making you need to advertise for it. That's the age we live in. Every game will need social media recognition. And that recognition will never be on par with it's actual quality if compared to competitors. It's mostly it's reach and buzz.

Also, steam has shown me THOUSANDS of GOOD QUALITY indie games over the years. And it regularly holds events with demos of upcoming indies. You literally don't know this probably because YOU DONT TAKE INTEREST in smaller games. It's your fault, no Steam's.

Am I saying steam couldn't improve? Hell no, IT SHOULD improve. But saying EPIC is doing better for indie's recognition? I'm sorry, Steam does MUCH MORE work to make GOOD INDIES come into the surface. How do you think I know EVERSPACE, STONESHARD, SPACE HAVEN, GHOSTRUNNER, FIGHTS IN TIGHT SPACES just to name a few? All of them I got to know through these steam events.

You clearly are talking about a subject you don't understand very much. And I'm a graduated student on game designing. Although I never worked with it, since I just model things, I had a lot of contact with indie devs, and even indie brazilian devs, like the creator of the Schumps game. You ALWAYS need to advertise heavily your games, it has nothing to do with steam, and GOG or EGS NEVER told me about any indie games events, contrary to what Steam does.

Just absolute lol, just compare our accounts and tell me who takes more interest in smaller indie games, I have plenty of indie games you likely never seen cause I dig, you're entire account is surface level stuff, literally almost every game you own has wound up on steams main page, because they have publishers attached which they get some pull in with Valve, not to mention you literally ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ proved my point when talking about the games you found out about on steam ? Ghostrunner was publisher by a triple A publisher, just lmao.

If you actually graduated from game design ( which I doubt, cause you have no idea what you're talking about), you should have some semblance of the industry. You're completely delusional.

[Friends with Benedicts]

lo, im sorry I live in a 3rd world country and I dont have enough money to own 3k games. I already spend a lot on gaming by usual standards, I cant afford more.

Also ok hahaha, just because the latest ones Ive been playing are AAA, because red dead is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ amazing anyway, doesn't mean I dont like indies. If they have less content that do not amount to more than 20hs of gameplay I can do nothing about it.

Oh yeah, I guess Dawn of Man is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ AAA game by your standards.

And if anything Ive proven the opposite of your point since you didn't addressed the fact that Steam does indie games events left an right but hey, it's better to just say I don't know nothing about the subject right?

It's astonishing how clear it is when someone on the internet has no arguments. They pick the only point they think they can "win" and start strawmanning it. Whatever suits you best fella, it was never a fight. I just pointed out that steam helps these indies MUCH MORE than epic or any other, but you're clearly not interested in the truth, but rather point out that my library is a sign of how steam works, not how I pick the games I want to buy.

[vukotlak]

Friends with Benedicts の投稿を引用：

vukotlak の投稿を引用：

BTW as many have already said this before. STEAM could easaly stop this situation by offering the Devs a better deal.

Im sorry sir, but you're using a fallacy. They do not choose to be exclusive to EPIC due to the 12% cut instead of the usual 30% (which EVERY STOREFRONT USES, NOT JUST STEAM). They choose to be exclusive solely because of UPFRONT money EPIC offers. Nothing to do with the cut as they are happy to sell their games on Steam whenever.

Also, I could easily spin your argument around into: EPIC could easaly stop this situation by offering the customers a better storefront.

Use some reading comprehension first before you try to lecture me.

I said epic makes a better deal. Offering money for development is a better deal. Nothing of what i said was wrong.

[Friends with Benedicts]

Ah ok thats fine. Yeah, it could offer an even better deal, but I prefer it not choosing to do the exclusive side. So if steam offered 12% it would be better overall rather than joining in exclusive wars

[Snort Cannon]

Friends with Benedicts の投稿を引用：

lo, im sorry I live in a 3rd world country and I dont have enough money to own 3k games. I already spend a lot on gaming by usual standards, I cant afford more.

Also ok hahaha, just because the latest ones Ive been playing are AAA, because red dead is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ amazing anyway, doesn't mean I dont like indies. If they have less content that do not amount to more than 20hs of gameplay I can do nothing about it.

Oh yeah, I guess Dawn of Man is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ AAA game by your standards.

And if anything Ive proven the opposite of your point since you didn't addressed the fact that Steam does indie games events left an right but hey, it's better to just say I don't know nothing about the subject right?

It's astonishing how clear it is when someone on the internet has no arguments. They pick the only point they think they can "win" and start strawmanning it. Whatever suits you best fella, it was never a fight. I just pointed out that steam helps these indies MUCH MORE than epic or any other, but you're clearly not interested in the truth, but rather point out that my library is a sign of how steam works, not how I pick the games I want to buy.

Can you even read ? That's not what I said, you spun all of my words in an entirely different direction, I said your entire library is SURFACE LEVEL STUFF, which it is, Dawn of Man was clearly shown on Steams main page and was a constant top seller.

Epic also does events, this point is irrelevant.

You didn't prove ♥♥♥♥, you just basically said they do events lol that's enough help. At least I can come up with legit arguments, unlike yourself who has to twists words to win.

[QuantumFerret]

I don't have any problem with EPIC. Their strategy is aggressive, but platforms like Steam needs competitors.

Just making an EPIC account for the free weekly games is worth it on it's own.

I use EPIC for what it is, a store where I buy games and I play them. It does what I need. If I want to discuss or research a game, I don't need a built in platform to do so.

[Friends with Benedicts]

QuantumFerret の投稿を引用：

I don't have any problem with EPIC. Their strategy is aggressive, but platforms like Steam needs competitors.

Honestly if Steam gets better with this Im all down for it. I would like to see improvement in many Steam features I use.

QuantumFerret の投稿を引用：

Just making an EPIC account for the free weekly games is worth it on it's own.

Definitely, I also recommend that to people.

QuantumFerret の投稿を引用：

I use EPIC for what it is, a store where I buy games and I play them. It does what I need. If I want to discuss or research a game, I don't need a built in platform to do so.

I see. I never felt like they offered me any deal good enough not to be topped by Steam's features, but I may end up buying DLCs there from the free games they gave me, so that's a possibility right there.

If anyone is wondering, I gave up on SIFU. After playing some Absolver I realized the gameplay loop nor gaming content is enough to keep me playing a lot, and judging by SIFU's mechanics Id rather buy something else so Ill prolly not buy it even when it gets on Steam now...

[vukotlak]

Friends with Benedicts の投稿を引用：

[

If anyone is wondering, I gave up on SIFU. After playing some Absolver I realized the gameplay loop nor gaming content is enough to keep me playing a lot, and judging by SIFU's mechanics Id rather buy something else so Ill prolly not buy it even when it gets on Steam now...

I don't see the logic behind this. Sifu and Absolver are completetly different games. I am now at roundabout 100 hours in Sifu and i am just starting new playthorughs since the last update couple of days ago.

I do not have much time to play anymore so i absolutly prefer quality over quantity. And Sifu is an absolute beast in that regards. If you are interested in martial arts then there is now way to avoid Sifu. It is the best there is by far.

[Friends with Benedicts]

I see. It just feels there's nothing much to it. Afaik it is a roguelike right? I love those, its definitely the genre I most buy games over a year. But these need great replayability to be worth. I'll be sure to investigate more. It's not that I want to ♥♥♥♥ on the game, it's just that my hype for it since I've created this thread is kinda gone.