Windfall Avoid vs. Forsaken Parry

[Dorito Man]

I have been wondering this ever since I heard about Absolver before its release and I had hoped it would be better explained when it came out. But I still don't understand. What advantage, if any, is there to Windfall's Avoid over Forsaken's Parry? The parry is easier to land and completely stops the opponent, meaning that it can shut down any combo spammers. However, Windfall's Avoid is harder to land and does not stop the combo, meaning even if you manage to ge the dodge off, they will just keep spamming the combo. The only advantage I've seen with Windfall style is that it has naturally higher Dexterity meaning combo spamming decks are easier to make, but that can still be done witht he Forsaken style and get the seemingly superior defense ability. So I ask before yelling that Windfall is underpowered: What on earth is the advantage? My friend has been crushing me with a very fast, spammy combo deck using Forsaken style, because I simply cannot get out of the combo without running out of stamina. When I do manage to get lucky enough to dodge it, he can just continue the combo anyways. So how do I fight it?

[Jotaro]

I'm pretty sure another huge factor is that when you dodge with windfall you regain a lot of stamina and the dodge really isnt all that hard and with the parry once you land it you dont regain stamina however im not 100% sure on that but im like probably 90% but if its true and i think it may be then that is a huge factor is pvp stamina is very important

[Dorito Man]

Originally posted by Izuora:

I'm pretty sure another huge factor is that when you dodge with windfall you regain a lot of stamina and the dodge really isnt all that hard and with the parry once you land it you dont regain stamina however im not 100% sure on that but im like probably 90% but if its true and i think it may be then that is a huge factor is pvp stamina is very important

I'm almost certain that successfully landing any defensive ability restores stamina.

[Mus Canus]

You do regain stamina with parry.

[Nox]

so - ok here's the big difference.

Windfall's avoid is better at maintaining initiative, less so at capturing it. Forsaken parry is great for reversals and can interrupt medium speed attacks.

With windfall, you can drive a stunning attack and avoid uninterruptable attacks and continue to drive. WIth parry, you capture the attack, and counter - and your counter can be very heavy and the opponent is open.

Windfall evade is much easier to pull off than parry, as well from what I have seen. Parry is risky, and can more easily be feinted out (which I do not see enough of against players, thankfully)

From my limited experience, parry if done well causes a lot of problems for windfall who get shut down and hit. Not so muck for K. I am glad I don't run into more good K-style players because done well, it's very punishing. The elbow thrust after absorb is painful.

[Dorito Man]

Originally posted by Nox:

so - ok here's the big difference.

Windfall's avoid is better at maintaining initiative, less so at capturing it. Forsaken parry is great for reversals and can interrupt medium speed attacks.

With windfall, you can drive a stunning attack and avoid uninterruptable attacks and continue to drive. WIth parry, you capture the attack, and counter - and your counter can be very heavy and the opponent is open.

Windfall evade is much easier to pull off than parry, as well from what I have seen. Parry is risky, and can more easily be feinted out (which I do not see enough of against players, thankfully)

I have yet to see how evade is easier than parry. Evade has to manage form 4 different directions. Parry only has 2. Every time you parry, you have a 50/50 chance of succeeding.

[obliviondoll]

Parry has been nerfed since beta, and I believe it's been nerfed again for release to have less heavy punish on a success.

Parry gives a consistent and reliable punish when you land it. Windfall doesn't. Windfall removes the ability to perfect-chain your next attack, and slows down the recovery. It opens punish opportunities, but they vary depending on the attacks being used at the time.

If you're getting consistently prevented from changing pressure, you need to be avoiding the right attacks to give the best punish opportunities. You gain stamina on a successful avoid, which lets you get stamina advantage for playing defensively against a fast spammy deck.

[Nox]

playing as forsaken - I am comfortable with parry's punish atm. It gives me time to do what I need to do.

[Dorito Man]

Originally posted by obliviondoll:

Parry has been nerfed since beta, and I believe it's been nerfed again for release to have less heavy punish on a success.

Parry gives a consistent and reliable punish when you land it. Windfall doesn't. Windfall removes the ability to perfect-chain your next attack, and slows down the recovery. It opens punish opportunities, but they vary depending on the attacks being used at the time.

If you're getting consistently prevented from changing pressure, you need to be avoiding the right attacks to give the best punish opportunities. You gain stamina on a successful avoid, which lets you get stamina advantage for playing defensively against a fast spammy deck.

I still don't see any advantage over the parry, though. Why go through all the practice and memorization of moves with Windfall, and get small results, when you can go with the much easier to use parry, and get much more reliable and powerful ones? What I think would be the best option would be that successfully evading an opponent's attack would drain extra stamina from your opponent, allowing you to play a more long-term game where you focus on aggression only when their stamina is drained.

[Nox]

As has been mentioned - evade allows you to play defensively and conservatively. You can gain and maintain a stamina advantage while pressing initiative.

Don't think of it - and in fact, don't think of any single move in isolation. That's not where the strategic game is. Your deck works as a set of situational advantages and synergies.

if it doesn't work for your playstyle, then it doesn't. I've fought people who it really did work for their playstyle and it was stressful to fight them.

Granted I am dedicated forsaken so perhaps someone can correct me if this is wrong, but what I have run into with good windfall (windmill) players is they will stay on me at all times, and I'll be pressed to disengage to recover stamina. It's a constant pressure game, with them sticking to me and me not having a chance to recover. Once I am low on stam my options are severely limited.

[Mus Canus]

Originally posted by Dorito Man:

Every time you parry, you have a 50/50 chance of succeeding.

That's very wrong. You also need to time it exactly right. Too soon or to late and you get hit.

[Dorito Man]

Originally posted by Mus Canus:

Originally posted by Dorito Man:

Thats very wrong. You also need to time it exactly right. Too soon or to late and you get hit.

Well, I mean, that's the same with every other defensive ability. I'm assuming that you time it right.

[Nox]

Originally posted by Mus Canus:

Originally posted by Dorito Man:

Every time you parry, you have a 50/50 chance of succeeding.

That's very wrong. You also need to time it exactly right. Too soon or to late and you get hit.

I parry slow attacks, and those I am familiar with quite well. Some moves are difficult for me to parry since there isn't a good tell. The K knee and elbow come to mind.

[Mus Canus]

Originally posted by Dorito Man:

Well, I mean, that's the same with every other defensive ability. I'm assuming that you time it right.

It seems that dodge has a wider window. People often succefuly dodge but not so often parry.

[HOAI]

As for the offensive perks to Windfall's avoid, I wouldn't know, myself. It does seem less punishing on a whiff than parry though, and the window for avoiding attacks is larger.

[Abstraction]

I play windfall and so far in the pvp matches ive been able to get its most effective in dodging heavy/guardbreaker hits giving you the advantage to start your combos while the attacker still hasnt finished swinging the attack you dodged