Re-reading the series: Tatarigoroshi questions and impressions

[a_sa_ro]

This arc is... just... wow. It feels like being hit by a train. So much happens at the same time that you don't really know what hit you. I'm guessing that's why it's one of the most brilliant arcs of the series.
I'm guessing this will be the longest post in this re-reading series, as it's the one that leaves the most unanswered questions... so please bear with me.

• Throughout the VN, they state that the Child Welfare Law states that when the abuse is imminent, a child can be taken away from their home. If so, wouldn't both the bruises in Satoko's body and her breakdown at school be a sign of abuse so absolute that the law would have to be applied?
  I also found the Child Consultation Center's need to have Satoko herself admit to the abuse a bit ridiculous considering that Satoko herself had given false testimonial before. I understand from a storytellling perspective that this was needed for her character growth (as seen in Minagoroshi), but in-story it doesn't make sense. "Satoko Houjou lied to us before about being abused, so we can't believe a report filed by someone else, but we'll only take action if the person who lied before says she's being abused." ...Yeah........ no.
  
  
• Rena's behaviour is a little off in this chapter. First she yelled at Keiichi pretty scarily when she called him out for being so mean to Mion, which I honestly think he deserved and was probably pre-meditated. The one I can't really make sense of is of her outburst while consoling Satoko. If Satoko was so scared, why would kicking down the locked help in anyway? If anything, it would make Satoko more afraid. And her yelling at Keiichi seemed a little out of place, too... in this case, him asking what was going on didn't seem to warrant such a response. My best two guesses were that either Keiichi was hallucinating her tone (similar to Onikakushi and later on in this same arc) or that Rena was actually starting to suffer from Hinamizawa Syndrome from seeing Satoko suffer and snapped just like Keiichi did with Mion.
  
  
• How much do you think the staff at the Irie Clinic knows about Hinamizawa Syndrome and the investigation taking place? When Keiichi overhears Irie talk about sedating him, the two doctors he was talking to say that there is one Mountain Dog left at the Clinic. However, Irie tells them Keiichi probably has a mental illness, most likely covering for the Hinamizawa Syndrome's existence. But it doesn't make sense to me that the regular staff would know about the Yamainu, a super secret unit, but not about the secret they were guarding in the first place.
  
  
• What did really happen to Satoko? EDIT: after throwing Keiichi off the bridge, that is.
  
  
• In the In Memoriam list at the end of this arc, it says that Kameda died trying to escape the disaster. But it's weird that he's there, as he didn't even live in Hinamizawa- he lived in Okinomiya.

And of course the biggest mystery of all: did Keiichi kill Teppei, or was it a hallucination? Over all, I think both the theories that Keiichi did kill him and that he actually killed someone else while hallucinating that it was Teppei make a lot of sense. Most of the events during the latter half of Tatarigoroshi can be explained from either point of view. However, I lean slightly toward the Keiichi did kill Teppei theory.

• From the tips, we already know that the police is tailing Teppei and Satoko because they believe the curse will fall on them. In the "Victim of the Fifth Year" tip, the police say that Teppei left the house but that he hadn't returned. Considering all the time that had passed between Keiichi killing him and the police finding Tomitake, it's unlikely that Teppei hadn't returned from the police station if Keiichi had killed the wrong man.
  
  
• Similarly, the police tracking Keiichi down doesn't make sense if they weren't following on their lead from Teppei's disappearance. Just like with Satoshi, they probably identified that Keiichi had a motive, and seeing a lantern in a clearing close to the road where Teppei had presumably last been could have raised Ooishi's alert (we already know he will cling on to the smallest leads to solve the series of deaths). If Keiichi hallucinated killing Teppei, I don't see why the police would be on his tail, especially since no extraordinary death is mentioned on the 19th on the In Memoriam.
  
  
• When Keiichi checked the food at the Houjou's table, there was one unwrapped food package for the food of the night of June 20th. Knowing Teppei, he would have scolded Satoko, told her her food was smelly and then eaten the whole thing without a trace of guilt. But if the whole thing was Satoko's hallucination, it would explain why his portion was unwrapped.
  
  
• On the morning of the 21st, Keiichi notes that the bike isn't parked at the Houjou residence and that Teppei isn't there. While this can be explained by the hallucination theory as Teppei already being out, it seems extremely out of character. A man who wouldn't leave the house even to feed himself doesn't strike me as the type who would leave so early in the morning. This and the reason before this can be easily explained under the hallucination theory, but I feel they aren't very consistent with Teppei's character.
  
  
• This last one isn't very solid, but I feel it's also a hint. In the "Record of Malice" tip, Satoko says that Teppei called her smelly "just like the man who died". As we know from Matsuribayashi, Satoko tended to lump her abusers' actions into her current abuser, and her previous step father (a.k.a. the man who died) never actually abused her. So if Satoko's step-dad never actually say those words as she believed, it's not impossible for them to be her imagination again. This is the weakest reason I have, but I don't think they would have put this part in if it wasn't to give us a clue. However, it could perfectly be that Teppei was that much of an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and coincidentially said the same thing a previous step-father did.

Sorry for the long post, but this is the most mysterious arc and leaves a lot of questions. I hope to hear some interesting insights on what others think :) Thanks for reading this!

[fllthdcrb]

Originally posted by a_sa_ro:

Throughout the VN, they state that the Child Welfare Law states that when the abuse is imminent, a child can be taken away from their home. If so, wouldn't both the bruises in Satoko's body and her breakdown at school be a sign of abuse so absolute that the law would have to be applied?
I also found the Child Consultation Center's need to have Satoko herself admit to the abuse a bit ridiculous considering that Satoko herself had given false testimonial before. I understand from a storytellling perspective that this was needed for her character growth (as seen in Minagoroshi), but in-story it doesn't make sense. "Satoko Houjou lied to us before about being abused, so we can't believe a report filed by someone else, but we'll only take action if the person who lied before says she's being abused." ...Yeah........ no.

I agree that is pretty ridiculous. I can only assume it was this way specifically as an obstacle to saving Satoko.

Of course... and maybe you've heard this... Ryukishi was a social worker before he wrote this series, so he must have been familiar with the problems of bureaucracies. He does seem to admit the portrayal of the CCC was unrealistic and says that they actually do help children, but I can't help feeling there is at least a little truth to it. Sometimes agencies that are supposed to help people actually do more harm than good. No idea how common that is, though.

The one I can't really make sense of is of her outburst while consoling Satoko. If Satoko was so scared, why would kicking down the locked help in anyway? If anything, it would make Satoko more afraid. And her yelling at Keiichi seemed a little out of place, too... in this case, him asking what was going on didn't seem to warrant such a response. My best two guesses were that either Keiichi was hallucinating her tone (similar to Onikakushi and later on in this same arc) or that Rena was actually starting to suffer from Hinamizawa Syndrome from seeing Satoko suffer and snapped just like Keiichi did with Mion.

It is strange. My interpretation is that she was remembering her own traumas. Kicking the locker and yelling at Keiichi right then seemed to be purely out of anger, perhaps frustration—some of it, I'm sure, at Keiichi, who was being too thick-headed to realize he couldn't approach Satoko any more right then, as it was only causing her more trauma. Of course kicking the locker wouldn't help Satoko, but she wasn't thinking about that. And no, I don't believe any of it was a hallucination on Keiichi's part. I think he was sane enough, until he snapped and decided to kill Teppei.

How much do you think the staff at the Irie Clinic knows about Hinamizawa Syndrome and the investigation taking place?

Hmm, hard to say. But if you think about it, it would make sense to have more doctors there than just him. Working on the Hinamizawa Syndrome research? Not sure.

When Keiichi overhears Irie talk about sedating him, the two doctors he was talking to say that there is one Mountain Dog left at the Clinic. However, Irie tells them Keiichi probably has a mental illness, most likely covering for the Hinamizawa Syndrome's existence. But it doesn't make sense to me that the regular staff would know about the Yamainu, a super secret unit, but not about the secret they were guarding in the first place.

Yeah, now that you bring this up, I don't know what to make of it.

What did really happen to Satoko?

You mean, regarding Teppei? I'm going to assume you're talking about her saying that he was still alive even after Keiichi thought he killed him. Well, I'm pretty sure Teppei really was dead at this point, and she was just hallucinating. It's clear just how much trauma she had suffered before then, and we find out later in the series that she's at L5 and has some delusions, mostly concerning her fathers, not even able to tell them apart. It's not much of a stretch to see that she might not even be able to tell when he's gone.

I'll address Keiichi's part below...

In the In Memoriam list at the end of this arc, it says that Kameda died trying to escape the disaster. But it's weird that he's there, as he didn't even live in Hinamizawa- he lived in Okinomiya.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Visiting just by chance, I guess?

And of course the biggest mystery of all: did Keiichi kill Teppei, or was it a hallucination? Over all, I think both the theories that Keiichi did kill him and that he actually killed someone else while hallucinating that it was Teppei make a lot of sense. Most of the events during the latter half of Tatarigoroshi can be explained from either point of view. However, I lean slightly toward the Keiichi did kill Teppei theory.

This one is easy. "Tsumihoroboshi-hen" answers it quite nicely, with Rena killing both Ritsuko and Teppei. What happens then? Her friends all help her bury the bodies. Then, finding out the forestry service is about to do some work in the area, Mion gets some of her family to move them, without telling Rena because she wants her to forget about it as much as possible. But Rena discovers the bodies are gone, and that makes her very paranoid. Kind of like what happened to Keiichi in this arc.

There's also the seemingly weird behavior of everyone in class the day after Watanagashi. In hindsight, it's clear that they all know and are trying to cover up for him, pretending that he was actually at the festival. Tragically, that only fuels his paranoid delusion. It didn't help that, unlike with Rena in "Tsumihoroboshi-hen", they didn't let him in on the secret at all.

I don't think I need to address the rest of your points, as there's nothing I need to say. I agree with those. I will add one more thing: in one or two of the answer arcs, Keiichi remembers what he did in this arc, how he killed Teppei, etc. I think that's pretty good confirmation in itself.

[a_sa_ro]

Originally posted by fllthdcrb:

I agree that is pretty ridiculous. I can only assume it was this way specifically as an obstacle to saving Satoko.

Of course... and maybe you've heard this... Ryukishi was a social worker before he wrote this series, so he must have been familiar with the problems of bureaucracies. He does seem to admit the portrayal of the CCC was unrealistic and says that they actually do help children, but I can't help feeling there is at least a little truth to it. Sometimes agencies that are supposed to help people actually do more harm than good. No idea how common that is, though.

I'm guessing you're right. I believe he mentioned how he was being unrealistic about the CCC, but it does make sense that the laws and perceptions regarding child abuse weren't up to our standards either.

It is strange. My interpretation is that she was remembering her own traumas. Kicking the locker and yelling at Keiichi right then seemed to be purely out of anger, perhaps frustration—some of it, I'm sure, at Keiichi, who was being too thick-headed to realize he couldn't approach Satoko any more right then, as it was only causing her more trauma. Of course kicking the locker wouldn't help Satoko, but she wasn't thinking about that. And no, I don't believe any of it was a hallucination on Keiichi's part. I think he was sane enough, until he snapped and decided to kill Teppei.

I think you're right. It was very heartbreaking to see Rena apologize to Satoko for not being able to do anything, so that fits in well with what you said. I like your interpretation, thanks!

You mean, regarding Teppei? I'm going to assume you're talking about her saying that he was still alive even after Keiichi thought he killed him. Well, I'm pretty sure Teppei really was dead at this point, and she was just hallucinating. It's clear just how much trauma she had suffered before then, and we find out later in the series that she's at L5 and has some delusions, mostly concerning her fathers, not even able to tell them apart. It's not much of a stretch to see that she might not even be able to tell when he's gone.

Sorry, I was caught up in my own thoughts and didn't notice the question was incomplete. Oops!
What I meant is what happened to her after throwing Keiichi off the bridge? Was it possible that she clawed her throat out and die, although it's mentioned she doesn't display that symptom in L5? Did she live long enough to see the GHD? I think it's impossible to really know, but still it intrigues me. It's probably my biggest mystery in the whole series.

This one is easy. "Tsumihoroboshi-hen" answers it quite nicely, with Rena killing both Ritsuko and Teppei. What happens then? Her friends all help her bury the bodies. Then, finding out the forestry service is about to do some work in the area, Mion gets some of her family to move them, without telling Rena because she wants her to forget about it as much as possible. But Rena discovers the bodies are gone, and that makes her very paranoid. Kind of like what happened to Keiichi in this arc.

There's also the seemingly weird behavior of everyone in class the day after Watanagashi. In hindsight, it's clear that they all know and are trying to cover up for him, pretending that he was actually at the festival. Tragically, that only fuels his paranoid delusion. It didn't help that, unlike with Rena in "Tsumihoroboshi-hen", they didn't let him in on the secret at all.

I don't think I need to address the rest of your points, as there's nothing I need to say. I agree with those. I will add one more thing: in one or two of the answer arcs, Keiichi remembers what he did in this arc, how he killed Teppei, etc. I think that's pretty good confirmation in itself.

I agree with your points. I find Rena's and Keiichi's story with hiding the body too similar to disregard as coincidence. I actually think that Rena and Keiichi are the characters that mirror each other the most, along with Keiichi and Satoshi. However, I've seen people say that Keiichi killed the wrong person and hallucinated that it was Teppei, and that the likeness in the hiding of the body still applies for killing the wrong person. That's why I re-read it keeping that in mind. Even with that, I find the evidence for Keiichi really killing Teppei more compelling.

I also like your argument for the latter arcs (I think it was Minagoroshi-hen) where Keiichi remembers killing Teppei. When he remembered the ohagi and the marker scenes, he remembered them how they were in reality. If he did remember killing Teppei in Tatarigoroshi, then it's likely what really happened as well.