How to deal with punishment shot

[Back To 17]

Was doing "take the bait" scenario mission, and almost everyone was one shot by snipers around with punishment shot or something like that after taking action. I have no idea how it work and how should i deal with it. Appreciate any suggestion.

[Bumc]

* Being out of the range or otherwise unseen (behind the corner, hidden, etc).
* Drawing punishment shots with someone who can tank them (for example, a battle mage in range of healing support from Annie)
* Disabling snipers (iirc they aren't stun/push immune)
* Suicide rush with someone in range of auto revive.
* Just taking some Ls. You have a bunch of heroes by then and if some fall, no big deal. I'd be an awful troubleshooter boss huh.

[MayamSP]

Snipers will attack anyone that attacks their allies (other enemies) who is 10 tiles away from them.

The easiest solution BY FAR, is to use heixing ranger and simply dodge all of their shots using cover move. Other characters that can dodge them include sion with his lightning gale ability or any spirit SP user with the subconscious ability. Don't bother trying misty with high dodge stat, they have over 200% hit chance and prior planning. Dodge stat is awful in the late game unless it's an effect that gives automatic dodge.

If you plan to tank them head on then Leton MA and Alisa barbarian are pretty good for it. The snipers will do no damage to tanks that can be:
-> Immune to bleed status
-> Immune to exposed state bonuses (Keen sense or Draki perfect scale)
-> At least 100% damage reduction
Leton's warming up ability and Barbarian's Tenacious barbarian set makes them immune to all physical debuffs including bleed. Other characters have to use a wrist guard that gives bleed immunity like the demolisher wrist guard.
Albus can tank the snipers as well but not as effectively as the 2 I mentioned above. He will need the wrist guard and the wind set second wind.

As for other solutions you can simply send a scout to look for the snipers and press V, check the snipers and their sight and only go for an attack if other snipers can not see you. Ray for example can throw wind grenades from angles where they can not see her and stun them.

[TheGrouch]

Lightning Reflexes is also actually useful for once on this map.

[burningmime]

Originally posted by TheGrouch91:

Lightning Reflexes is also actually useful for once on this map.

Huh? Lightning reflexes is pretty useful on a LOT of maps, especially the white tiger ones from the main story. 46V comes to mind as one where the Darkness Hunter set (dodge all responsives) is frankly kinda OP if you can fit it into your builds.

[TheGrouch]

Originally posted by burningmime:

Originally posted by TheGrouch91:

Lightning Reflexes is also actually useful for once on this map.

Huh? Lightning reflexes is pretty useful on a LOT of maps, especially the white tiger ones from the main story. 46V comes to mind as one where the Darkness Hunter set (dodge all responsives) is frankly kinda OP if you can fit it into your builds.

Not really as generally your tanks need to be able to survive sustained fire anyway so dodging a single shot won't make a huge difference. And your squishies shouldn't be targeted by reactive attacks.

Darkness Hunter is strong but is very specific and uses a lot of jank. And I was talking about just LR.

[Simbolic]

Using Battle Mage class with Magic armor like mentioned is recommended. I use Irene her fire affinity works well. Given her Defense mastery's that can remove debuffs and revive her from death called phoenix I believe. Gisele and ray are about the best used to take them out. there very sqeeshy so just crank up Gisele's range as much as you can and give her the the two attack masterys. Like one shot kill and the other attack mastery that refunds your ability points. So once figure out where they are can send her in and take most of them out. Rays is very good as well since she can be in spots around buildings where they can't touch her. She can also have decent range and be untouchable by them. Since she can throw over objects and walls. When they still need a clean straight hit.
Fyi pressing V button will show enemies sight range, should see red blocks being that range. So pretty much need to figure where they all are and have one character be able to see them in there sight range. Or able to get close enough and not die with Gisele who can light shot the area exposing all enemies. Stuff like that can help, depending difficulty. Unless your an absolute pro and know everything inside and out. While likely being all maxed out on everything as well. Then it's always going to be a bit rough in late game.
The snipers and the enemies that get immortality while SP is fully charged. Are always going potential wreck your day. Though tbh on cruelty difficulty I been doing fine with Snipers but that immortality massive buffs bs with fully charged SP honestly can mess me up more then anything. About 65% of the time there SP attacks one shots one of my guys no matter what. When playing on mission levels 50 and above maybe even 45 and above.
There are some ways to remove buffs from enemies but I never play that way. So likely just making it harder for myself.

[burningmime]

Originally posted by TheGrouch91:

your squishies shouldn't be targeted by reactive attacks

How exactly do you avoid that, though? This isn't a game with "player turn then enemy turn". Your squishies are going to get turns where they're targeted by overwatch and stuff. Shukuki on Anne and Heixing saved me more times than I'd care to admit on levels like 31V.

[Simbolic]

Probably means to stay back enough with those characters, so your out of range for them to use them. I made mistakes before in the past as likely same as you. Would keep pushing forward with all characters. Since thought best to keep them all together. Which is not good to do, some characters you may need to keep on standby or conceal for several turns. Even though it feels like wasting turns that could have potential helped you. Depending on difficulty sometimes got to be really patient. Bait out some with your tank or tanks, even if some range characters can hit some of them. Sometimes still got wait it out, given most call for back up. So sometimes there will be more coming that won't be able to see yet.

[TheGrouch]

Originally posted by burningmime:

Originally posted by TheGrouch91:

your squishies shouldn't be targeted by reactive attacks

How exactly do you avoid that, though? This isn't a game with "player turn then enemy turn". Your squishies are going to get turns where they're targeted by overwatch and stuff. Shukuki on Anne and Heixing saved me more times than I'd care to admit on levels like 31V.

Idk what to tell you there to be honest. Just simple tactics? The game tells you very clearly who will have its turn and when and how far they can go or attack. Outside of being ambushed by some crazy out of nowhere attack (looking at you Blut) you really never have to send your squishies to the frontline. With proper positioning it is possible to maintain a clear tank - supporty/semi-tanky - squishy backline formation with layers that keep your backline safe. An enemy will also not use its Overwatch when it has a clear shot at one of your tanks. And only very late in the game will enemies get the auto-overwatch set. You'd have to actively leave your squishies alone or run into the enemy Overwatch for it to be problematic. I much rather have Second Heart which protects me against everything and gives me an instant turn to get me out of whatever bad position I managed to put myself in. Sure it only works once but if I fk up this royally twice then I deserve to lose a character.

Don't really have any footage of a mission as early as 31V but here is 46V which I think you mentioned before: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMSCWzgGWUs
This was done in my last playthrough and I do a mostly good job of what I described above. Got a bit carried away with Sion once but luckily had enough time to fall back for a bit and wait for the actual frontline to arrive. Didn't use Darkness Hunter on a single person and not a single crucial LR/Perfect Scale was triggered. Now you could say that this is only because I knew the map and that would be partially true. However I hadn't played the map in over a year and I think the way I played was very conservatively and methodic which could easily be replicated if this was your first time. Go step by step. Scout ahead with your vanguard and then follow with your backline and park them in safe positions once the enemy is engaged with your tank.

[burningmime]

Originally posted by TheGrouch91:

Originally posted by burningmime:

How exactly do you avoid that, though? This isn't a game with "player turn then enemy turn". Your squishies are going to get turns where they're targeted by overwatch and stuff. Shukuki on Anne and Heixing saved me more times than I'd care to admit on levels like 31V.

Idk what to tell you there to be honest. Just simple tactics? The game tells you very clearly who will have its turn and when and how far they can go or attack. Outside of being ambushed by some crazy out of nowhere attack (looking at you Blut) you really never have to send your squishies to the frontline. With proper positioning it is possible to maintain a clear tank - supporty/semi-tanky - squishy backline formation with layers that keep your backline safe. An enemy will also not use its Overwatch when it has a clear shot at one of your tanks. And only very late in the game will enemies get the auto-overwatch set. You'd have to actively leave your squishies alone or run into the enemy Overwatch for it to be problematic. I much rather have Second Heart which protects me against everything and gives me an instant turn to get me out of whatever bad position I managed to put myself in. Sure it only works once but if I fk up this royally twice then I deserve to lose a character.

Don't really have any footage of a mission as early as 31V but here is 46V which I think you mentioned before: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMSCWzgGWUs
This was done in my last playthrough and I do a mostly good job of what I described above. Got a bit carried away with Sion once but luckily had enough time to fall back for a bit and wait for the actual frontline to arrive. Didn't use Darkness Hunter on a single person and not a single crucial LR/Perfect Scale was triggered. Now you could say that this is only because I knew the map and that would be partially true. However I hadn't played the map in over a year and I think the way I played was very conservatively and methodic which could easily be replicated if this was your first time. Go step by step. Scout ahead with your vanguard and then follow with your backline and park them in safe positions once the enemy is engaged with your tank.

Dunno man... that looks really boring. I'd rather lose a couple characters than spend 70 minutes on a single mission, so I tend to play a bit more aggressive, not trying to maintain a perfect formation. When playing more aggressively, I've found Lightning Reflexes to really help for the White Tiger missions (most notably on Anne, who's usually dashing all over the place to get people healed, and Ray when she decides to go scouting).

Second Heart feels like a "one and done" thing; an insurance policy in case something goes catastrophically wrong; LR is going to protect you over and over. Second Heart is also slightly harder to slot into builds than Lightning Reflexes, since it's 3 points instead of 2, and not part of many sets.

LR is part of Shukuchi, Undefeated, Swift Footwork, Escape Death, Darkness Hunter, Street Fighter, Pierce Through the Battlefield, Opportunist, Everything Needs a Slice of Luck, and some beast sets. Shukuchi is INCREDIBLY useful early game when speed is at a premium. Undefeated is pretty core on some tank builds. Street Fighter, Pierce, and Opportunist are all going to be on their respective classes for sure. So, LR might have protected you a lot more than you realize through the midgame/white tiger sections because it was already on your characters

[TheGrouch]

Originally posted by burningmime:

Originally posted by TheGrouch91:

Idk what to tell you there to be honest. Just simple tactics? The game tells you very clearly who will have its turn and when and how far they can go or attack. Outside of being ambushed by some crazy out of nowhere attack (looking at you Blut) you really never have to send your squishies to the frontline. With proper positioning it is possible to maintain a clear tank - supporty/semi-tanky - squishy backline formation with layers that keep your backline safe. An enemy will also not use its Overwatch when it has a clear shot at one of your tanks. And only very late in the game will enemies get the auto-overwatch set. You'd have to actively leave your squishies alone or run into the enemy Overwatch for it to be problematic. I much rather have Second Heart which protects me against everything and gives me an instant turn to get me out of whatever bad position I managed to put myself in. Sure it only works once but if I fk up this royally twice then I deserve to lose a character.

Don't really have any footage of a mission as early as 31V but here is 46V which I think you mentioned before: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMSCWzgGWUs
This was done in my last playthrough and I do a mostly good job of what I described above. Got a bit carried away with Sion once but luckily had enough time to fall back for a bit and wait for the actual frontline to arrive. Didn't use Darkness Hunter on a single person and not a single crucial LR/Perfect Scale was triggered. Now you could say that this is only because I knew the map and that would be partially true. However I hadn't played the map in over a year and I think the way I played was very conservatively and methodic which could easily be replicated if this was your first time. Go step by step. Scout ahead with your vanguard and then follow with your backline and park them in safe positions once the enemy is engaged with your tank.

Dunno man... that looks really boring. I'd rather lose a couple characters than spend 70 minutes on a single mission, so I tend to play a bit more aggressive, not trying to maintain a perfect formation. When playing more aggressively, I've found Lightning Reflexes to really help for the White Tiger missions (most notably on Anne, who's usually dashing all over the place to get people healed, and Ray when she decides to go scouting).

Second Heart feels like a "one and done" thing; an insurance policy in case something goes catastrophically wrong; LR is going to protect you over and over. Second Heart is also slightly harder to slot into builds than Lightning Reflexes, since it's 3 points instead of 2, and not part of many sets.

LR is part of Shukuchi, Undefeated, Swift Footwork, Escape Death, Darkness Hunter, Street Fighter, Pierce Through the Battlefield, Opportunist, Everything Needs a Slice of Luck, and some beast sets. Shukuchi is INCREDIBLY useful early game when speed is at a premium. Undefeated is pretty core on some tank builds. Street Fighter, Pierce, and Opportunist are all going to be on their respective classes for sure. So, LR might have protected you a lot more than you realize through the midgame/white tiger sections because it was already on your characters

Well "this is kinda boring" is not really something that can be reasonably argued about so idk what else to tell you in that regard. You need LR because your positioning is doodoo because of your lack of patience. If you play properly then you won't need LR 99% of the time. Also I don't play on max speed and like to take my time when recording so without those 2 things you can easily shave off 20+ minutes I reckon.

However I'm not going to let you tell me that I did not realize how much LR has really helped me and that I'm just a dum dum that can't understand that. I tested countless builds and setups multiple times throughout my last playthrough to properly research my guide so believe me that I paid attention to what was working and what wasn't. You can list sets with LR all day long but it's ultimately meaningless. The only sets that are core sets in your list are the Grenadier sets and guess who the only character in my team was who had LR. Not because I love LR though. Street Fighter is a decent set but by no means core and it only goes on tanks anyway so dodging a single shot for them is meaningless.

I picked the video mainly because you seemed not as experienced and I wanted a more "average" playstyle but if you want a more aggressive example without any waiting around then here's an old 54V run of mine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4sxPsNxRFI

Certainly not a flawless run but 227AT is a pretty respectable time so I hope it's not too slow again. Yes yes it's 40 minutes, as I said I play slowly. However there's only a single tank in this run and the rest is just 5 (I'm cheating a bit with Hacker) squishies. There isn't a single crucial LR activation.

So as you can see if your argument is "I like to play more aggressive" then LR is just as mediocre (probably even worse than when you play slowly). Because if you truly are an aggressive player then enemies will not even get a chance to possibly attack you with reactive attacks. Your argument isn't "I like to play aggressive" your argument is "I don't want to think about positioning and have poor map awareness". In which case yeah you would need more defense one way or another.

[burningmime]

Originally posted by TheGrouch91:

Originally posted by burningmime:

Dunno man... that looks really boring. I'd rather lose a couple characters than spend 70 minutes on a single mission, so I tend to play a bit more aggressive, not trying to maintain a perfect formation. When playing more aggressively, I've found Lightning Reflexes to really help for the White Tiger missions (most notably on Anne, who's usually dashing all over the place to get people healed, and Ray when she decides to go scouting).

Second Heart feels like a "one and done" thing; an insurance policy in case something goes catastrophically wrong; LR is going to protect you over and over. Second Heart is also slightly harder to slot into builds than Lightning Reflexes, since it's 3 points instead of 2, and not part of many sets.

LR is part of Shukuchi, Undefeated, Swift Footwork, Escape Death, Darkness Hunter, Street Fighter, Pierce Through the Battlefield, Opportunist, Everything Needs a Slice of Luck, and some beast sets. Shukuchi is INCREDIBLY useful early game when speed is at a premium. Undefeated is pretty core on some tank builds. Street Fighter, Pierce, and Opportunist are all going to be on their respective classes for sure. So, LR might have protected you a lot more than you realize through the midgame/white tiger sections because it was already on your characters

Well "this is kinda boring" is not really something that can be reasonably argued about so idk what else to tell you in that regard. You need LR because your positioning is doodoo because of your lack of patience. If you play properly then you won't need LR 99% of the time. Also I don't play on max speed and like to take my time when recording so without those 2 things you can easily shave off 20+ minutes I reckon.

However I'm not going to let you tell me that I did not realize how much LR has really helped me and that I'm just a dum dum that can't understand that. I tested countless builds and setups multiple times throughout my last playthrough to properly research my guide so believe me that I paid attention to what was working and what wasn't. You can list sets with LR all day long but it's ultimately meaningless. The only sets that are core sets in your list are the Grenadier sets and guess who the only character in my team was who had LR. Not because I love LR though. Street Fighter is a decent set but by no means core and it only goes on tanks anyway so dodging a single shot for them is meaningless.

I picked the video mainly because you seemed not as experienced and I wanted a more "average" playstyle but if you want a more aggressive example without any waiting around then here's an old 54V run of mine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4sxPsNxRFI

Certainly not a flawless run but 227AT is a pretty respectable time so I hope it's not too slow again. Yes yes it's 40 minutes, as I said I play slowly. However there's only a single tank in this run and the rest is just 5 (I'm cheating a bit with Hacker) squishies. There isn't a single crucial LR activation.

So as you can see if your argument is "I like to play more aggressive" then LR is just as mediocre (probably even worse than when you play slowly). Because if you truly are an aggressive player then enemies will not even get a chance to possibly attack you with reactive attacks. Your argument isn't "I like to play aggressive" your argument is "I don't want to think about positioning and have poor map awareness". In which case yeah you would need more defense one way or another.

Doesn't sound like you're interested in arguing the merits of the thing (LR) in game, you just want to somehow prove you're personally a better player than me. And y'know what... if you think completing a mission in 227AT is indicative of skilled play, then fair enough. You're much better at using exploits than I am. You might also be faster at typing "IDDQD" into Doom.

You've written 3 paragraphs which do not address Lightning Reflexes during the midgame at all; you only talk about endgame content and optimal builds once you hit the level cap. 31V comes before you have Kylie, likely before reliable moving castle Battle Mage, and certainly before you can do 0AT exploits. At this point in the game, enemies are going to get turns; you're going to run past overwatches; etc. You can deal with that by playing incredibly slow and defensive. You can also deal with it by crafting smart character builds that let you over-extend, get to "doodoo" positions, and finish levels more quickly.

My experience playing those through several times with limits to growth + max difficulty options is that Shukuchi, Undefeated, and Street Fighter are extremely useful sets for their time in the game, although they definitely get surpassed once you have access to late-game masteries. I'm actually about to start 37S again right now, and I have LR on 3 characters (and had it on more characters during earlier levels). You might not find those sets good on your playthrough. Fine. But showing off a video of 54V (an endgame mission with fairly few ranged enemies), where you blatantly use an exploit to win, does have anything to do with Lighting Reflexes in the mid-game. It's the Chewbacca defense.

[Bumc]

Shukuchi is just a good midgame set because without it everyone is painfully slow.
The LR is a bonus on top.

[TheGrouch]

Originally posted by burningmime:

Originally posted by TheGrouch91:

Well "this is kinda boring" is not really something that can be reasonably argued about so idk what else to tell you in that regard. You need LR because your positioning is doodoo because of your lack of patience. If you play properly then you won't need LR 99% of the time. Also I don't play on max speed and like to take my time when recording so without those 2 things you can easily shave off 20+ minutes I reckon.

However I'm not going to let you tell me that I did not realize how much LR has really helped me and that I'm just a dum dum that can't understand that. I tested countless builds and setups multiple times throughout my last playthrough to properly research my guide so believe me that I paid attention to what was working and what wasn't. You can list sets with LR all day long but it's ultimately meaningless. The only sets that are core sets in your list are the Grenadier sets and guess who the only character in my team was who had LR. Not because I love LR though. Street Fighter is a decent set but by no means core and it only goes on tanks anyway so dodging a single shot for them is meaningless.

I picked the video mainly because you seemed not as experienced and I wanted a more "average" playstyle but if you want a more aggressive example without any waiting around then here's an old 54V run of mine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4sxPsNxRFI

Certainly not a flawless run but 227AT is a pretty respectable time so I hope it's not too slow again. Yes yes it's 40 minutes, as I said I play slowly. However there's only a single tank in this run and the rest is just 5 (I'm cheating a bit with Hacker) squishies. There isn't a single crucial LR activation.

So as you can see if your argument is "I like to play more aggressive" then LR is just as mediocre (probably even worse than when you play slowly). Because if you truly are an aggressive player then enemies will not even get a chance to possibly attack you with reactive attacks. Your argument isn't "I like to play aggressive" your argument is "I don't want to think about positioning and have poor map awareness". In which case yeah you would need more defense one way or another.

Doesn't sound like you're interested in arguing the merits of the thing (LR) in game, you just want to somehow prove you're personally a better player than me. And y'know what... if you think completing a mission in 227AT is indicative of skilled play, then fair enough. You're much better at using exploits than I am. You might also be faster at typing "IDDQD" into Doom.

You've written 3 paragraphs which do not address Lightning Reflexes during the midgame at all; you only talk about endgame content and optimal builds once you hit the level cap. 31V comes before you have Kylie, likely before reliable moving castle Battle Mage, and certainly before you can do 0AT exploits. At this point in the game, enemies are going to get turns; you're going to run past overwatches; etc. You can deal with that by playing incredibly slow and defensive. You can also deal with it by crafting smart character builds that let you over-extend, get to "doodoo" positions, and finish levels more quickly.

My experience playing those through several times with limits to growth + max difficulty options is that Shukuchi, Undefeated, and Street Fighter are extremely useful sets for their time in the game, although they definitely get surpassed once you have access to late-game masteries. I'm actually about to start 37S again right now, and I have LR on 3 characters (and had it on more characters during earlier levels). You might not find those sets good on your playthrough. Fine. But showing off a video of 54V (an endgame mission with fairly few ranged enemies), where you blatantly use an exploit to win, does have anything to do with Lighting Reflexes in the mid-game. It's the Chewbacca defense.

You started this argument. Not me. You also started implying that I don't know what I'm talking about. "So, LR might have protected you a lot more than you realize". Hence my comments to back up that I do indeed realize what is happening in the game. If you don't want the discussion to derail then... don't derail it. Pretty simple.

On the topic of derailing the discussion (which you seem fond of): What "exploit" exactly am I blatantly using to win?

Early and midgame enemies do not have many reactive shots. I said that before. There is no point in argueing about that. Nobody has Fire Support. The best they have is Overwatch. But none of them will have the free Overwatch set. And they will not use Overwatch if they can target you. So if you really are playing this aggressively then they can most likely do that. There's also Close Suppressive Fire but if you're trying to tell me next that you run into that with your backline too then I can't really take you serious anymore.