level 58 violent Mission, The Mungo's Mission is crazy

[El_Sama]

This mission is very very overtuned, most minions there have insane dodge rate, literally absurd, and have crazy responsive attack that punish you for having low hit rate, I knew something was wrong when my tank (Leton) got randomly KO when trying to attack a random monkey with a sword and he has over 3k HP and over 1600 def.

Sure I am average player with average masteries and average gear playing in hard for the extra mobs but this mission is the very definition of crazy, I randomly missed with my entire squad against a mob that brutally 1 hit KOd my bianca, then some crazy thing called king kong or something, teared apart my whole squad when he was getting turns out of nowhere, basically he was getting turn after turn after turn until no one was standing, I managed to take him down using cheapo hide/surge from misty, but suddenly revived got even crazier and proceed to finish me off.


Dont get me wrong I have hundred of hours into the game and I happy with it, just not very happy about these Mungos and their insane dodge rate. Even with "prior planning" I am having a terrible time hitting these "Monkeys" and I have over or almost 100% hit rate on every character, sure I have to grind for better gear and refines but this is just a crazy step up, was already ridiculous that some small crab with tiny pincers can out damage a giant sword but whatever, this is insanity.

[Kilervi]

I feel the same way, I've completed almost all the missions on max difficulty and that specific mission feels absurdly unfair. The evasion rate they have is exaggerated, added to the freezing grenades that they throw at every moment and the critical hits that the enemies connect.
I've tried several times to complete it but so far no strategy has worked for me, let alone defeating the mungo king

[mordred8346]

It's definitely designed to stress test your builds. I finally cleared it on Cruel/Challenge mode yesterday and it took some care and repetition. I used the southern entrance; the east looked best on paper but led to me getting wiped or retreating a couple times. You can clear out two large groups and their leaders pretty safely starting from the south (sword leader and gun leader) which gives you a decent base to operate from. If you're having trouble with their dodge I found Kylie's radar extremely helpful for stacking the revealed status on them. Her drones can also give you bonuses to hit, stack that ♥♥♥♥ up and blast those apes.

[Blazing]

Having cleared it yesterday on my second try on cruel/HRHR, I concluded there's a few aspects that I find unfun or hard to deal with in this mission:
-Random luck that can get copied.
-The throwers with perma AT delay and grenades that may not even be avoidable (?). Mostly a problem because you're so outnumbered. Also it seems throwers can straight go through 2 story buildings (my Ray was able to do it too) - is that new?
-I personally dislike the randomness (or my lack of understanding) of mungo's getting guaranteed hits, and when your characters can die in one hit it doesn't feel good.
-I ended up finishing the mission without a single tank alive, none of my frontliners could survive the constant poking and guaranteed hits.
-Mungo King seems overrated, pretty easy to kill compared to early destrons. He can take a lot of turns, but he isn't that tanky.
-Please remove Bianca's kick from responsive bond masteries - it is still killing her every time.

I don't think the dodge rates by itself is that big of a problem, but I could understand why it feels annoying with mimic evasion 3x.

[watcherzero]

Gunmen can randomly one shot most charachters with headshot outside smoke (ironically the throwers love of ice grenades helps in this respect) but rather than the bosses its the throwers that are the worst for their speed, AT reduction, aoe damage and freezing grenades. You need to rush them with melee as they have practically no melee defense. The swordsman and other melee mungos on the other hand go down easy to ranged attacks having far less dodge than throwers/gunmen (though block on occasion).

I found the key to the level is you must stop the enemy grouping into large numbers either by conducting a devastating blitzkreig before you get adds or through hit and run. And avoid areas with high rooftops so they cant lend supporting fire until youve cleared the enemy units on the ground around them, pulling back if required until your melee have a clear run at them. You can alternately clear them with ranged if you can position units on the ground to flank and expose them.

[BlyZeraz]

-Thrower Mungos can AT lock anyone, they need handled as top priority.
-Sword mungos all have auto crit forestall, do not ever approach them directly.
-Red Mungos are the ones with lightning reflexes. Keep anything with responsive attacks on your team away from them or you can trigger mimic evasion for a whole area.
-Regular brown mungos have forestall as well and their own basic counts as a slash attack. Don't bother using slash characters on them because if you approach and evade forestall they will immediately get to freely dodge your attacks and give evasion to area.
-Gunner mungos currently still have "luck: talent when they shouldn't on top of chainfire to attack twice and headshot. 2nd top priority to kill behind throwers.
-Thief, axe, and hammer mungos are all lowest threat. Treat them as fodder to chain and catharsis off of, not to focus.

This stage isn't well designed or remotely balanced currently because mungos are simply too effective at buffing the ever living hell out of each other with unfair conditions and debuffing you. Do not bother farming this stage unless you really want their gear drops or for pet farming. Not even going to bother giving advise for things to consider about the bosses other then Colorful and King are the only threats to worry about.


Also, start south. East is getting used the most because people think highground there is good to take. It's not. It's one of the worst start locations because leaving it is bad in any direction;.

[The nameless Gamer]

The entire mission is just watching your team take damage from throwers who get AT recovery WHILE putting your characters into AT+ hell. This is worse than XCOM. It's not exciting in any way, you just get to watch your characters snowballed to death. At least the XCOM missions with Mutons throwing grenades at you from every direction don't drag out, because XCOM grenades do heavy damage and you don't get to watch your team tormented by endless AT delay while those (insert swear word of your liking here) monkeys get AT recovery to the point where you don't even get to play the game.

[Bumc]

I completed the mission, but it involved some heavy cheese all around, and more often than not something goes wrong and your guys get rolled.

Still, its the only mission that requires some strategy (read: cheese), which is a nice change of pace.
And its optional, so you don't _have_ to beat it.

[The nameless Gamer]

The Destron missions were just fine strategic challenges. Giving enemies endless turns while taking away yours isn't challenge. It's bad design. Giving enemies viable dodge mechanics while making it completely useless for the player is bad design. Letting enemies snowball you with guaranteed hits is bad design.

[RikuDEagle]

Welp, here's some tips for people struggling with that mission as well.
Mungos work like that:

MIMIC EVASION

If you miss an attack, all Mungos that "saw" the action will get the evasion buff, they'll dodge 100% the SAME Attack Type OR Damage Type until they get their turn, if you keep attacking, they'll get -AT to act faster. When it's their turn, they'll reset the skill.

So, just turn up the hit rate as much as you can and try for guaranted hits. It's a pain? Of course...Specially because most of them will get the buff for doing nothing at all and can dodge 3~5 times. And it just keep stacking Attack Types and Damage Types. Multi-hit attacks can help reset it.

Also, it's a good idea to just keep people with responsive actions away from them, if you don't want to give by accident free dodges to, I don't know, shots? This goes for cover skills too...

MIMIC ATTACK

Works almost like Evasion, they need to see an attack that hit the target. If they use something with the same Attack Type or Damage Type, they'll hit, don't matter how high your dodge is.

MUNGO KING

Now, about the big bad boss, that will eternaly get a turn for each breath you take near it...It'll take some damage, but wharever, it'll recover a good chunck of health later anyway...It'll hit hard and without mercy. It's not really tank, just annoying. You can defeat it easyly by using a good build with "Awaken" to get your special up, and finish it in one go as soon as it's spotted. It'll get up again (what a pain...). So...Another special should be able to put him down for good.

OTHER MUNGOS

The real problem I can see, (besides the MIMIC EVASION and ATTACK that really need some rework) it's really the big amount of THROWER MUNGOS with unlimited ammo that slow the group forever. You can deal with it using Mungo Clothing so you can negate Frostbite, or using Snowman Mastery. Still, if you're hit, you'll get +30AT...You can put someone to tank it and use Kylie support to give the tank their turn back faster or just use the Mastery Set "Can't Wait Anymore" (+200AT = Get your turn NOW). Catharsis and One Shot One Kill are your friends here if you can keep hitting and killing them in one attack.

But, it isn't really that bad, if you think a bit, you'll see that...They actually help? Since they're making smokescreens that make everyone inside immune to headshots from the Gunner Mungos?

Also as already said, don't get any meele unit near the green ones, they'll just forestall and hit for a killing blow.

We can use a lot of good strategies to deal with the problem, we just need to act with calm and patience here. Preparations help a lot, but we also need a bit of luck.

And yeah, you can use some potions to get 30% extra hit if you really need. It's for 3 turns, but still, it can help a lot in this kind of situation.

[The nameless Gamer]

Originally posted by RikuDEagle:

MIMIC EVASION

If you miss an attack, all Mungos that "saw" the action will get the evasion buff, they'll dodge 100% the SAME Attack Type OR Damage Type until they get their turn, if you keep attacking, they'll get -AT to act faster. When it's their turn, they'll reset the skill.

Basically, "let's give an enemy type multiple guaranteed evasions on top of those already provided by mastery sets". Also, "let's completely invalidate fire-support-centered builds and synergies".

Originally posted by RikuDEagle:

MIMIC ATTACK

Works almost like Evasion, they need to see an attack that hit the target. If they use something with the same Attack Type or Damage Type, they'll hit, don't matter how high your dodge is.

"The players kept complaining about dodge being a useless mechanic. Let's give enemies a viable dodge mechanic while invalidating it for the PLAYER even further."

Originally posted by RikuDEagle:

OTHER MUNGOS

The real problem I can see, (besides the MIMIC EVASION and ATTACK that really need some rework) it's really the big amount of THROWER MUNGOS with unlimited ammo that slow the group forever. You can deal with it using Mungo Clothing so you can negate Frostbite, or using Snowman Mastery. Still, if you're hit, you'll get +30AT...You can put someone to tank it and use Kylie support to give the tank their turn back faster or just use the Mastery Set "Can't Wait Anymore" (+200AT = Get your turn NOW). Catharsis and One Shot One Kill are your friends here if you can keep hitting and killing them in one attack.

"So, let's force players to shoehorn AT-delay immunity into EVERY build."

The main problem with this mission and likely successive ones is that the player's options are restricted. A good game let's ME as player solve the problem with multiple different approach methods, unless it's a PUZZLE game. "Troubleshooter" is not a puzzle game, but the Mungos turn it into one. I've got the "Trine" series for puzzles, I don't want them in "Troubleshooter" and other turn-based RPGs.

[Warlynx]

This mission is by far the most awful one they have designed until now. Destrons were also very hard and could wipe your entire team if you didn't prepare properly, but at least you could prepare builds to scrap them or strategies like the EMP grenade.
What pisses me off the most is that you can't do that here. There is almost no way to build to prepare against infinite turn haxx. Even your own 0 AT build infinite turn gets wrecked because the monke gets priority. He dodges all responsive attacks, gets rid of all bad status almost instantly so no CC. The only way to kill him like it was pointed above is to drop a mega nuke on his head like Hacker Kylie ult, but then he gets up again and kills your nuker and keeps destroying everything.
And the fruit of the cake? It's not Second, its THIRD HEART what he has. That means (as I found out with tons of rage) that he can revive himself MORE THAN ONCE. Can you guess how royally pissed off I was when after a lot of struggles I managed to kill him, then he got up, then after almost all of my team was dead I managed to land the second kill heroically, and he got up AGAIN?! Because the bastard keeps stealing turns with his cheat skill, the "Revived" debuff is pretty much non-existant for him. Oh, and of course the random Luck procs to instakill any tanky character that might have had a way to stop him.
Add another 40 raging monkeys and 3 heroes making your life impossible at the same time and there you have it, your own vision of hell on earth. They seriously need to rebalance this mission, I like that the game is challenging as everyone else but they can't expect us all to be top-of-the-line build geniuses like Ashuram.

[Skyever]

Traps and 0 Action Point ability are so useful. It's also useful to reduce the field of view through Smoke Grenade and Flash Grenade because it is useful to attack outside the field of view.

[BlyZeraz]

Originally posted by The nameless Commander:

Originally posted by RikuDEagle:

MIMIC EVASION

If you miss an attack, all Mungos that "saw" the action will get the evasion buff, they'll dodge 100% the SAME Attack Type OR Damage Type until they get their turn, if you keep attacking, they'll get -AT to act faster. When it's their turn, they'll reset the skill.

Basically, "let's give an enemy type multiple guaranteed evasions on top of those already provided by mastery sets". Also, "let's completely invalidate fire-support-centered builds and synergies".

Originally posted by RikuDEagle:

MIMIC ATTACK

Works almost like Evasion, they need to see an attack that hit the target. If they use something with the same Attack Type or Damage Type, they'll hit, don't matter how high your dodge is.

"The players kept complaining about dodge being a useless mechanic. Let's give enemies a viable dodge mechanic while invalidating it for the PLAYER even further."

Originally posted by RikuDEagle:

OTHER MUNGOS

The real problem I can see, (besides the MIMIC EVASION and ATTACK that really need some rework) it's really the big amount of THROWER MUNGOS with unlimited ammo that slow the group forever. You can deal with it using Mungo Clothing so you can negate Frostbite, or using Snowman Mastery. Still, if you're hit, you'll get +30AT...You can put someone to tank it and use Kylie support to give the tank their turn back faster or just use the Mastery Set "Can't Wait Anymore" (+200AT = Get your turn NOW). Catharsis and One Shot One Kill are your friends here if you can keep hitting and killing them in one attack.

"So, let's force players to shoehorn AT-delay immunity into EVERY build."

The main problem with this mission and likely successive ones is that the player's options are restricted. A good game let's ME as player solve the problem with multiple different approach methods, unless it's a PUZZLE game. "Troubleshooter" is not a puzzle game, but the Mungos turn it into one. I've got the "Trine" series for puzzles, I don't want them in "Troubleshooter" and other turn-based RPGs.

Let's also not forgot when I made and shared the first truly viable dodge tank build I made for BMask when he came out, someone raged at Dandylion using my screenshots with augmented stats to call mungos too strong. Then they REALLY denied us getting to do dodge anything with a kneejerk nerf that never got reverted. Meanwhile enemy mungos still get to actually be OP because of mimmick evasion making it so you can't use entire characters types against an area as soon as you OR the enemy miss an attack.

People need to stop fixing on raw stat numbers and focus on actual issues like level design and enemy balance. Mimmick evasion is a perfect example of a mechanic fine on pets, not on enemies. Same with fire support which used to be unlimited on enemies.

[TheGrouch]

How delusionally arrogant does one have to be to think that they made the first ever viable build of anything. Especially in a game that is this deep into development.

Dodge can never be balanced because it ignores all damage dealt. It makes you basically immortal if it ever becomes 100% reliable. However if it isn't 100% reliable then you will still need other defenses to cover that weakness and at that point why even bother with dodge. There is no solution to that. The stat is inherently broken and even just very small changes to it can lead to gamebreaking results.

As for Mimicking... never was a fan of auto-anything effects. They're just extremely one-sided effects and turn the game into rock-paper-scissors. If someone always crits then why even bother with half the stats in the game like block or dodge. All that is left is to use the appropriate counter which is often a single mastery like say Impulse Fields. However that is not only extremely gimmicky but also extremely boring. All those auto-anything effects should have never been spread so much. Especially now where we're at a point where they are easily activated like Mimicking. Always blocking is fine on something restrictive as Final Resistance. But always dodging is not okay when all you have to do is see something dodge. That's way too easy to achieve.

[Blazing]

Originally posted by TheGrouch91:

Dodge can never be balanced because it ignores all damage dealt. It makes you basically immortal if it ever becomes 100% reliable. However if it isn't 100% reliable then you will still need other defenses to cover that weakness and at that point why even bother with dodge. There is no solution to that. The stat is inherently broken and even just very small changes to it can lead to gamebreaking results.

As for Mimicking... never was a fan of auto-anything effects. They're just extremely one-sided effects and turn the game into rock-paper-scissors. If someone always crits then why even bother with half the stats in the game like block or dodge. All that is left is to use the appropriate counter which is often a single mastery like say Impulse Fields. However that is not only extremely gimmicky but also extremely boring. All those auto-anything effects should have never been spread so much. Especially now where we're at a point where they are easily activated like Mimicking. Always blocking is fine on something restrictive as Final Resistance. But always dodging is not okay when all you have to do is see something dodge. That's way too easy to achieve.

I disagree, dodge can be balanced - it's just a high risk high reward build. Countered by some, such as high hit rate characters. There's already so many masteries that increase hit rate, dodge could never be as consistent as block - which is very hard to reduce in comparison. That being said, it's absolutely bad right now because guaranteed hit counters dodge while it needs to be a guaranteed crit to counter block. With any guarantee defensive options, dodge could never compete. Why make a whole character focus on dodge if you could just have a ranger with cover move do it better?

I do agree on the auto-anything effects, but I think you underestimate guaranteed block with final resis.