Counterattack is not bad

[sandman25dcsss]

I've noticed that some players complain about Counterattack. Why?
My Irene deals 5k+ damage on counterattack and AT is typically REDUCED by 10 instead of increased by 30.
Revenge set increases counterattack damage by 50-100% depending on whether the attack was dodged or not, Undefeated reduces AT by 10 if the target is out of action by counterattack, Hero decreases AT by another 30 if the target is out of action, Movement on Silence set blocks 75% damage instead of 50% and then increases counterattack damage by 250% blocked damage, Returning the Enemy's Force increases counterattack damage by 50% of blocked damage. Even if enemy refuses to die (I have just beaten V39 where Irene entered main room alone and stayed there for like forever (I got achievement for AT 300 delay), she still killed many machines by counterattacks: 39k damage in 31 attacks
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2906561655
She survived due to My Dream to Be a Hero which added funny buffs like "reduce enemy to-hit by 40%" (twice because different buffs have it) and those buffs stayed for extremely long time due to counterattacks to machines which refused to die because of crazy armour. When I finally could act as Irene, she had 4 or 5 buffs at 3 turns. You can see she dodged 523 out of 529 attacks.

My Albius is probably even more impressive than Irene vs non-machine: he does not need to fight alone and has 85% chance for bladestorm (base 25% + 15% from the Sword of Counterattack set + 15% from Traces of Blood + another 30% from Traces from Blood because of bleeding enemy). Weapon Blocking reduces AT by 10 when blocking and by another 20 when blocking from Sword of Protection set. Of course I have Bloodbath also which reduces AT by 30 when killing bleeding enemy. Bladestorm always connects because of Combo Attack set and deals crazy damage because enemy is bleeding and I have Hemorrhage (+100% damage) and Wound Slashing (+50% damage). and even if enemy survives, they get 20% max HP damage every turn due to severe bleeding.

[x_equals_speed]

I feel like you've sort of answered your own question by introducing your Irene build with "This actually reduces AT" and then got to "Stayed there for forever getting the achievement for being 300AT in the red

Even when CA builds theoretically let you maintain control of your character, it tends to depend on countering, hitting, and killing and there are just too many ways for that sequence to be interrupted by the wrong enemy mastery or a bad die roll. Sooner or later you end up as a fancy bollard.

Sometimes a fancy bollard is enough, on late levels at high difficulties it tends not to be.

Hero/counter makes good sense though, when it works your counter attack is legitimately producing that extra AT. SoP/counter has never made sense to me, you can take the counter off and sword of protection still works just fine. It's usually better to just take an extra turn than an extra attack, especially with Albus who can make forestall so dangerous and reset it each turn.

[sandman25dcsss]

Originally posted by x_equals_speed:

I feel like you've sort of answered your own question by introducing your Irene build with "This actually reduces AT" and then got to "Stayed there for forever getting the achievement for being 300AT in the red

Even when CA builds theoretically let you maintain control of your character, it tends to depend on countering, hitting, and killing and there are just too many ways for that sequence to be interrupted by the wrong enemy mastery or a bad die roll. Sooner or later you end up as a fancy bollard.

Sometimes a fancy bollard is enough, on late levels at high difficulties it tends not to be.

Hero/counter makes good sense though, when it works your counter attack is legitimately producing that extra AT. SoP/counter has never made sense to me, you can take the counter off and sword of protection still works just fine. It's usually better to just take an extra turn than an extra attack, especially with Albus who can make forestall so dangerous and reset it each turn.

I think there is some misunderstanding here. Irene reached 300 AT because she was attacked by about 10 enemies with ranged attack (most of them were machines), many of them added 10 AT on attack. Let me create another screenshot when I actually counterattack ;)

[x_equals_speed]

Naw I get it, when the counterattacks actually happen and connect and kill it works great. I believe that if you are engaged by only melee enemies that don't use impulse fields (or something more exotic that lets them survive hits) it works great.

It's just that there are so many situations where that doesn't happen in practice.

[sandman25dcsss]

Impulse Shield does not matter. I've just tried to create some screenshots and ran into melee units with Impulse Shield. Non-impulse guy was killed by Forestallment and Irene instatly got her turn again because of -40 AT (30 from hero, 10 from Undefeated), after my turn Irene was attacked by 2 guys with Impulse Shield, Of course they didn't die and lost just 50% HP. Irene got +60 AT. So what? It is equivalent of attacking at 30 AT while we have 36 as minimum and she didn't spend any vigor on it.

I encourage you to at least try it again ;)

PS. It is double fun when Kylie uses her support to give instant turn to such counterattacker.

[x_equals_speed]

Attacking for 30AT is a horrible exchange rate. A below average speed character equipping forestall and no other masteries is doing better than that and they get to choose who one of their attacks is against.

But I do believe in experimentation over theorycrafting, sometimes the results are surprising and I've not tried it in a while so I will do as you suggest and throw together the best Irene solo-counter attacker I can next time I play.

[sandman25dcsss]

Ok, please let me know what you think after your experiement.
Here is my Irene for reference
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2906604748
I have Flame Regeneration, but it does not work well with this build so I rely on retreat to Anne to restore HP if needed.

And Albus
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2906606239

[Blazing]

It's not bad, just not optimal. I use it on multiple characters at endgame.

[TheGrouch]

When characters can run around with 120 speed and 15AT turns then doing a sh*tty basic attack for 30AT is not very optimal anymore. On slower characters like beasts it is still quite efficient.

However being proactive is always better than being passive. Relying on enemy actions for your characters to do something takes control away from you and puts it into the enemy's hands. Which can lead to more unpredictable and potentially unfortunate situations. The more control you have the fewer unlucky accidents should happen.

E: Plus Forestallment is often just the better Counterattack.

[sandman25dcsss]

Originally posted by TheGrouch91:

When characters can run around with 120 speed and 15AT turns then doing a sh*tty basic attack for 30AT is not very optimal anymore. On slower characters like beasts it is still quite efficient.

I tried it, but I don't see a way to solve issue with skills: after killing 2-3 enemies Albus is out of skills to use.
I did it for grenadier Ray who can spam basic attack as long as she one-shots things, but Albus does not have anything like Nimble Preparation :(
Maybe it will be available later, but for now Counterstrike solves both vigor and skills problem.

E. "Best condition" is still unknown and I have just realized that I haven't played any ordinary cases except the first one, lol. Playing level 7 scenario designed for 2 characters with 8 characters of 40+ level is extremely boring even in challenge mode :(

[TheGrouch]

Originally posted by sandman25dcsss:

Originally posted by TheGrouch91:

When characters can run around with 120 speed and 15AT turns then doing a sh*tty basic attack for 30AT is not very optimal anymore. On slower characters like beasts it is still quite efficient.

I tried it, but I don't see a way to solve issue with skills: after killing 2-3 enemies Albus is out of skills to use.
I did it for grenadier Ray who can spam basic attack as long as she one-shots things, but Albus does not have anything like Nimble Preparation :(
Maybe it will be available later, but for now Counterstrike solves both vigor and skills problem.

E. "Best condition" is still unknown and I have just realized that I haven't played any ordinary cases except the first one, lol. Playing level 7 scenario designed for 2 characters with 8 characters of 40+ level is extremely boring even in challenge mode :(

Sounds like you are missing the mastery Catharsis which reduces all cooldowns by 1 on a kill. I can imagine that without that Counterattack and such look a lot stronger.

E: Also just in general much of what is being discussed here is about lategame. And lategame is vastly different. Early on when characters are slower and weaker in general certain masteries are quite strong. Counterattack can be one of them.

[The nameless Gamer]

Albus is the only character I could reliably use counterattack with and have less AT than more (the less, the better). But that's because I synergized it with basically EVERY AT-reducing mastery in the book. Undefeated+weapon blocking+bloodbath+enough rest. White Knight is another class which CAN be made to work with Counterattack equipped but not as reliably as the Bloodbath-GS.

[sandman25dcsss]

Originally posted by TheGrouch91:

Originally posted by sandman25dcsss:

I tried it, but I don't see a way to solve issue with skills: after killing 2-3 enemies Albus is out of skills to use.
I did it for grenadier Ray who can spam basic attack as long as she one-shots things, but Albus does not have anything like Nimble Preparation :(
Maybe it will be available later, but for now Counterstrike solves both vigor and skills problem.

E. "Best condition" is still unknown and I have just realized that I haven't played any ordinary cases except the first one, lol. Playing level 7 scenario designed for 2 characters with 8 characters of 40+ level is extremely boring even in challenge mode :(

Sounds like you are missing the mastery Catharsis which reduces all cooldowns by 1 on a kill. I can imagine that without that Counterattack and such look a lot stronger.

E: Also just in general much of what is being discussed here is about lategame. And lategame is vastly different. Early on when characters are slower and weaker in general certain masteries are quite strong. Counterattack can be one of them.

Right, I don't have Catharsis. It is my first playthrough and I play just story and violent missions once without any taming, summoned robots or crafting so I am sure I miss lots of masteries and mechanics. I started a new company where I am going to use second class on every character and play ordinary cases also, it will be interesting to compare.

[sandman25dcsss]

Originally posted by The nameless Commander:

Albus is the only character I could reliably use counterattack with and have less AT than more (the less, the better). But that's because I synergized it with basically EVERY AT-reducing mastery in the book. Undefeated+weapon blocking+bloodbath+enough rest. White Knight is another class which CAN be made to work with Counterattack equipped but not as reliably as the Bloodbath-GS.

Thank you, this is my experience as well. Irene really needs to kill things for AT reduction while Albus does not. I don't have Enough Rest :(

[HunterRassius]

Counterattack builds are perfectly fine if you know what you're doing. WK Alisa being a perfect example. Certainly the preferable play style that plays to her strengths rather than her weaknesses. MAs are nearly exclusively built for counter attack play though the characters that have access to said class may have other things to do with their time that would be preferable. Albus as well is quite strong in regards to Sen no Sen/Retaliation builds. As well, none of these characters have to forever sit as a turret IF you build them right though they are almost always much stronger offensively on an enemy's turn rather than their own.

[sandman25dcsss]

Lol, I have just found during second run that you are supposed to see how powerful Luna is when alone Albus is attacked while meeting Anne. During first run I had Albus with Counterattack so he just killed those 20+ thugs and Luna never joined the combat.