Two handers and pikes

[Emmental]

Is it just me or is any unit with two handed weapons or pikes totally useless? Two handers just get massacred by inferior units and pikes just lift their pikes and use swords when they make contact with the enemy?

Alot of units are just redundant for me.

[chon]

Two handers are supposed to flank only and do not put your pikes against infantry only brace them for a cavalry charge and/or flank cavalry with them. It makes sense actually.. A guy with a shield has the advantage against a guy without one no matter how big his weapon is, also a guy with a shield and a sword has the advantage against a spearman.

[Darth Cannabis]

Originally posted by SapperGR:

Two handers are supposed to flank only and do not put your pikes against infantry only brace them for a cavalry charge and/or flank cavalry with them. It makes sense actually.. A guy with a shield has the advantage against a guy without one no matter how big his weapon is, also a guy with a shield and a sword has the advantage against a spearman.

Actually the main purpose of 2 handers, is the one thing cavalry should Never do. Head on charges into pikemen. You use the higher attack and charge bonus to break up pike formations, while not having to worry about them autopmatically killing the charge liek with cavalry. This make 2 handed swords paramount when breaching a pike defended wall breach, since you have no flank to attack.

Pikes, obviously are a pure anti cavalry charge unit. They are best used in sieges, on your main gate or a wall breach that the AI did with long range artilery. Typically the faster speed of cavalry, cause them to hit the breach 1st, and if your pike are ready to intercept, its easy for your remaining troops to hold off thier infantry after. There is virtually no cavalry unit in game that can head on charge pikemen. Cavalry that do so can normally expect 1/3 to half of the cavalry, dead on the initial charge into pikes, (if one of your strongest types) and due to the long melee range of pikes, the intial loss of pikes, isn;t until after the cavalry charge has been stopped. This means that cavalry vs pike in head on, equals truly ♥♥♥♥♥♥ cavalry. They lose half a squad before they can cause damage, and that damage likely lost its charge bonus.

[chon]

Originally posted by Darth Cannabis:

Originally posted by SapperGR:

Two handers are supposed to flank only and do not put your pikes against infantry only brace them for a cavalry charge and/or flank cavalry with them. It makes sense actually.. A guy with a shield has the advantage against a guy without one no matter how big his weapon is, also a guy with a shield and a sword has the advantage against a spearman.

Actually the main purpose of 2 handers, is the one thing cavalry should Never do. Head on charges into pikemen. You use the higher attack and charge bonus to break up pike formations, while not having to worry about them autopmatically killing the charge liek with cavalry. This make 2 handed swords paramount when breaching a pike defended wall breach, since you have no flank to attack.

Pikes, obviously are a pure anti cavalry charge unit. They are best used in sieges, on your main gate or a wall breach that the AI did with long range artilery. Typically the faster speed of cavalry, cause them to hit the breach 1st, and if your pike are ready to intercept, its easy for your remaining troops to hold off thier infantry after. There is virtually no cavalry unit in game that can head on charge pikemen. Cavalry that do so can normally expect 1/3 to half of the cavalry, dead on the initial charge into pikes, (if one of your strongest types) and due to the long melee range of pikes, the intial loss of pikes, isn;t until after the cavalry charge has been stopped. This means that cavalry vs pike in head on, equals truly ♥♥♥♥♥♥ cavalry. They lose half a squad before they can cause damage, and that damage likely lost its charge bonus.

When I said 2 handers in the first sentence I meant units with claymores, warhammers and such.

[Darth Cannabis]

Originally posted by SapperGR:

Originally posted by Darth Cannabis:

Actually the main purpose of 2 handers, is the one thing cavalry should Never do. Head on charges into pikemen. You use the higher attack and charge bonus to break up pike formations, while not having to worry about them autopmatically killing the charge liek with cavalry. This make 2 handed swords paramount when breaching a pike defended wall breach, since you have no flank to attack.

Pikes, obviously are a pure anti cavalry charge unit. They are best used in sieges, on your main gate or a wall breach that the AI did with long range artilery. Typically the faster speed of cavalry, cause them to hit the breach 1st, and if your pike are ready to intercept, its easy for your remaining troops to hold off thier infantry after. There is virtually no cavalry unit in game that can head on charge pikemen. Cavalry that do so can normally expect 1/3 to half of the cavalry, dead on the initial charge into pikes, (if one of your strongest types) and due to the long melee range of pikes, the intial loss of pikes, isn;t until after the cavalry charge has been stopped. This means that cavalry vs pike in head on, equals truly ♥♥♥♥♥♥ cavalry. They lose half a squad before they can cause damage, and that damage likely lost its charge bonus.

When I said 2 handers in the first sentence I meant units with claymores, warhammers and such.

Yeah theres was no confusion. So was I, specifically, the Forlorn Hope, Zwei Handers, and Highland Nobles.
Also as a side note, unless you adding mods, there are no 2 handed warhammers. Venetian heavy infantry come the closest,(I'd call them hand and a half or bastard warhammers) but even they use shield. Historically most warhammers in warfare are from celtic factions, and those are 1 handed as well.
The entire idea of 2 handed warhammers in warfare is largely a videogame fanatasy. It was such a rarity except for peasent using a dockmaul or some other such makeshift armament.

[chon]

Originally posted by Darth Cannabis:

Originally posted by SapperGR:

When I said 2 handers in the first sentence I meant units with claymores, warhammers and such.

Yeah theres was no confusion. So was I, specifically, the Forlorn Hope, Zwei Handers, and Highland Nobles.
Also as a side note, unless you adding mods, there are no 2 handed warhammers. Venetian heavy infantry come the closest,(I'd call them hand and a half or bastard warhammers) but even they use shield. Historically most warhammers in warfare are from celtic factions, and those are 1 handed as well.
The entire idea of 2 handed warhammers in warfare is largely a videogame fanatasy. It was such a rarity except for peasent using a dockmaul or some other such makeshift armament.

I meant the poleaxes the dismounted english knights use.

[Destin Faroda]

Unmodded Total War games have always had strange battle mechanics.
The Real Combat Mod should be able to fix these issues. You can either use it separately or in combination with Stainless Steel.

[Stubbs]

Pikes are amazing for gaurding archers agianst round about tatics via horsemen. Two Handers are best used in siege battles. Send them around the sides of the interior base.. Wait for your spearmen to engage and bring them on in. Two hands make insanely short work of missle units.

[Raven]

I'm currently and passionately looking to see A) Why pikes appear to be broken. [utterly pointless in offense, but useful for defense, versus the reality that offense WAS an option] B) Trying anything I can to make them work. So far double-stacking them and never using them offensively has paid off well, (duh).

As for Two-handed weapons.. polearms and such. Some of the shorter ones have a 'spear-wall' mode which I don't understand in the least. Largely because though longer than one-handed weapons, they're still far too short to achieve a real spear-wall status. Nonetheless I think those polearm units are intended to use spear-wall entirely to emulate pike formations, and when going on the offensive, I think it's best you de-activate that function.


Now.. what is this The Real Combat Mod? I'll look into that.

[Shadow of the SPQR]

Two handers aren't for long-term melee. Use em to bash into the enemy, not hold the line (that's what spearmen/heavy infantry are for).

Pikes I either use exclusively against cavalry or make as thin lines as possible, then in deployment have heavy infantry right in front of the men (not the pikes themselves).

[Chebruh]

Two handers have a "glitch" that makes it so they cant finish their attack animation so they dont do the damage. In Kingdoms CA fixed this issue.

[.bastet.]

It also didn't apply to all units from what I understand/ read...like pikemen being affected, but not two-handed swordsmen.

[[TUUONCUOGB]BothChicken]

Originally posted by Janas:

I'm currently and passionately looking to see A) Why pikes appear to be broken. [utterly pointless in offense, but useful for defense, versus the reality that offense WAS an option] B) Trying anything I can to make them work. So far double-stacking them and never using them offensively has paid off well, (duh).

The way I understood it had to do with the way guard mode was used with pikes. When pikes are standing still they won't get into a defensive position unless guard mode is used, then they lower their pikes. The issue is that this would make them use their swords since they're not allowed to manouevre and so you should turn guard mode off when they reach combat.

But the best and most reliable way I've seen pikes used is to have a better melee unit in front to screen the pikes and let the pikemen attack while the unit in front is in combat like double stacking.

[Raven]

Originally posted by TUUONCUOGBBothChicken:

Originally posted by Janas:

I'm currently and passionately looking to see A) Why pikes appear to be broken. [utterly pointless in offense, but useful for defense, versus the reality that offense WAS an option] B) Trying anything I can to make them work. So far double-stacking them and never using them offensively has paid off well, (duh).

The way I understood it had to do with the way guard mode was used with pikes. When pikes are standing still they won't get into a defensive position unless guard mode is used, then they lower their pikes. The issue is that this would make them use their swords since they're not allowed to manouevre and so you should turn guard mode off when they reach combat.

But the best and most reliable way I've seen pikes used is to have a better melee unit in front to screen the pikes and let the pikemen attack while the unit in front is in combat like double stacking.

Yeah, see I hate that the pikes can't function on offense like I feel they should. I've typically had great success with double stacking them as well because it gets more pikes deployed per the space available. Ultimately though, they seem defensive tools in this era, and despite that I think they were sort of unfairly gimped in this way, (and that I feel it's cheap to have a unit only functional if merged with another), it's just the way the cookie has crumbled. I've had no luck with mods, so merging and defending it is.

[TheButterflyComposer]

Remeber that in this era, proffesional armies were a rareity and basicly their presence showed who the real powers were at the time.
The idea of pike formations and defensive lines doesn't make as much sense outside the flat plains common in southern Europe.