Pikes, pikes and pikes... Useful or not?

[Warriog]

Hi... I´ve often played with lot of heavy infantry, but few days ago I tried in America campaign to build pike army... They are amazing, but it's hard to contol pike army and it's hard to attack with them. Fighting against knight is big risk. But I found tutorial how to fix breaking phalanx in front attack: http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.php/32922-pike-spacing-mod-II
What do you think Should be pikes with this fix really OP?

[titan36]

pike attacked by side, back is always weakpoint, not op.

sorry my bad english

[Lie Chen Zhou]

pikes even without editing/fixing the desc file is very strong. Pikeman is essential if you play as Teutonic

[Warriog]

Originally posted by Lie Chen Zhou:

pikes even without editing/fixing the desc file is very strong. Pikeman is essential if you play as Teutonic

It is true :)

Originally posted by titan36:

pike attacked by side, back is always weakpoint, not op.

sorry my bad english

Firtst rule for MTW2 don't get flanked! :D

U have to slop flanking CAV or else with your CAV or else :) Also pikes need heavy swords :)

[Stubbs]

I always put one or two pike units in my capital's and in danger towns. Pikes infront as everyone charges into the gate? Devistating. Most of the time the very hard very hard combat AI will charge his general in first when he gives the attack order.

[Warriog]

Originally posted by Stubbs:

I always put one or two pike units in my capital's and in danger towns. Pikes infront as everyone charges into the gate? Devistating. Most of the time the very hard very hard combat AI will charge his general in first when he gives the attack order.

It's true... BUT! In PvP battles lot of player put heavy infantry. Yes, it's easy, but pike millitia can do same for half price. BUT pike m. is vulnerable to front attack from HI.. So It's right? Or should be pike fix added?

[Rocket]

They're good to pin down or defend. You can win outnumbered 10 to 1 siege battles if you use pikes at chokepoints, provided you don't let them get taken out by missile troops.

[Mile pro Libertate]

Originally posted by Sir Warriog The Bloody (Pagan):

Originally posted by Stubbs:

I always put one or two pike units in my capital's and in danger towns. Pikes infront as everyone charges into the gate? Devistating. Most of the time the very hard very hard combat AI will charge his general in first when he gives the attack order.

It's true... BUT! In PvP battles lot of player put heavy infantry. Yes, it's easy, but pike millitia can do same for half price. BUT pike m. is vulnerable to front attack from HI.. So It's right? Or should be pike fix added?

You don't need to mod/fix pikes to make them effective against heavy infantry.

True, pike units are bugged in several aspects, but they can be utilized to great effect if you position them correctly to overcome the bugs, especially the tendency of pikes to switch to swords when in melee.

The simplest way to do this is to click and drag a pike unit into two lines, and then to take a second pike unit and click and drag it so its formation overlaps with the first unit, like this:

^ - First pike unit man
* - Second pike unit man

Arrange like so:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
********************************************
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
********************************************

This formation overcomes the bugs/limitations of vanilla pikes in several ways. First, because there is a bug to where only the first two rows of pikemen will engage the enemy, this formation allows four rows to fight because the computer sees two units seperately engaged, even though they are overlapped; second, the rear pike unit can attack and advance "through" the first unit, to the point where it is actually in front of the first unit, thus allowing the pikes to actually "push" forward in a way that a single pike unit cannot do on its own; third, because the formations are overlapped, the unit spacing is in effect much tighter than a single pike unit , making for a very dense array of pikes that enemy units will have a hard time getting through.

If you put two overlapped units like this on Guard mode, even the best enemy heavy infantry will have a hard time breaking through the formation, because it is so dense.

You can make the formation even denser by adding a third unit, so that you have 6 total lines of pikes.

Aside from the above trick, here are some general guidelines to using regular, un-modded pike units in MTWII:

1) Guard mode may be desirable if you just want to pin the enemy in place, to do a rear attack with another unit for example, but in other circumstances, Guard mode should be turned *off* so that the pikes actually attack aggressively and push into the enemy.

2) If the pikemen erroneously drop their pikes and switch to sword, you can get them to switch back to pike by disabling and then renabling the "Spear Wall" button. The pike will reappear more or less instantly. This can be very useful for catching enemy cavalry. For example, you can take spear wall off, order the pike men to charge the cavalry, and they will run at high speed. Often, a human opponent will charge into your running pikemen. Once contact is made, just rapidly click the Spear Wall button on, then off, then on again, and they will use their pikes and start killing the cavalry extremely effectively, even if the cav are in the midst of the formation.

3) In my experience, any pike formation deeper than 6 ranks is unnecessary. One could argue that having more lines in reserve helps replace casualties, but honestly, if the pikes are arranged correctly, they won't take many casualties from enemy infantry before you can successfully outflank or do a cavalry charge anyway. It's better to have a few pike units behind the battle line that can be rushed forward as a reserve in case something goes wrong, or to use them to protect your rear or perform flanking maneuvers, than to waste them making the front pike line deeper than 6 ranks.

4) Pikes tend to move slower (out of combat) in Guard mode, and faster with Guard mode off.

5) Grouping your pike formations is essential so that you can move them effectively in the overlapped mode.

6) A pike "square" or "block" can be formed by putting one unit of pikemen in front of another, with a very small gap in between them, like so:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

******************
******************
******************
******************

Such a block can be grouped and maneuvered around as a single "unit" for a variety of missions. It is very versatile: it is more or less invulnerable to cavalry charges, it can maneuver to the ends of the main pike line and perform flanking attacks, or it can act as a reserve to go to a weak spot of the line and push over enemy infantry that are breaching. For the block, arranging the pikemen into deeper formations keeps the "unit" agile and allows for overwhelming weight in the 'push of pike' if used as a reserve or flanking element.

In the main line, the emphasis is on frontage, but for the block, the emphasis is on concentrating the "weight" of the pikemen across a smaller area.

7) Pikemen are very vulnerable to missiles of all types. If the enemy has a great missile superiority, it is usually better to go on the offensive as sooon as possible and close the distance by using the aforementioned pike blocks. Take guard mode and spear wall off, and move the blocks as fast as possible towards the enemy, then, re-enable spear wall just when you are about to make contact or if enemy cavalry charge. I call this "going Swiss," because it's reminescent of their aggressive, steamrolling pike tactics.

8) If you decide to 'go Swiss,' don't hesitate to seek out the enemy's cavalry and attack them directly, instead of waiting for the enemy to charge you. This can really throw a lot of your opponents off, because there is a tendency with new players to think that pikes must be stationary and in Guard Mode to withstand a cavalry charge. In other words, if the enemy sees you brought a lot of pikes, and he has a large amount of cav, he is going to be wary of the pikes, but he expects that he has the maneuvering advantage. The last thing he will typically expect is that you will actually start running all over the field trying to outflank him with your pike blocks like they are light cavalry
;)

If handled properly, pikes can be very mobile and not in a "proper" formation and still devastate cavalry, provided they have their pikes out AND another units of pikes to cover their rear. A single pike unit can get destroyed by a cavalry charge if it hits them as they are coming into formation, or from the rear, but if you use the block method, there is really no direction enemy cavalry can safely attack from.

[FriedAss (Squid/Ward)]

Very helpful. Thank you.

[Improper Use]

Any melee unit can be used in the pike overlap as well to stop the pikemen being engaged in melee. But generally you want your best armored melee to be taking the overlap.
This is especially useful in seige's as the narrow zones between buildings are perfect for pikes

[Gigantus]

Keep pikes on the flanks to stop cavalry, other infantry in centre to counter attack, send cavalry around your flanks into the back of the attacker and roll up with pike from both sides. End of battle.

[Inardesco]

It all depends what unit it is; Pike militia will switch to swords if the enemy gets to close. The Spanish and Portugese pikes still use their pikes in melee.

[Ruinae Retroque Rursus]

Trait Increase: Lieutenant Dan: Necromancer

"This man can summon topics from the dead, long after they perished in battle!"
+4 Dread, -8 Piety, 50% chance of casualties healing

--------------------------------------

Pikes work best in mods. They're okay in vanilla and better in Americas, but for the full pike experience play mods.

[Mile pro Libertate]

Originally posted by aidenpons:

Trait Increase: Lieutenant Dan: Necromancer

"This man can summon topics from the dead, long after they perished in battle!"
+4 Dread, -8 Piety, 50% chance of casualties healing

--------------------------------------

Pikes work best in mods. They're okay in vanilla and better in Americas, but for the full pike experience play mods.

Definitely this holds true for sp.

But it can be difficult to find mp games with these mods, especially nowadays with the diminished activity.

The "formation workaround" lets you use pikes in mp as they were meant to be, without mods.

[FriedAss (Squid/Ward)]

Are pikes good in Call of Warhammer: Beginning of the End Times?

[Inardesco]

I can't say if they're good in that mod, in TATW pikes are quite strong.

Main problem for Pike Militia in vanilla Med2 is that they switch to their sword once they're in melee. There are certain pike units (Aventuros from Portugal) that don't switch to sword and will rek your lines with ease.