Mongol and Timurid invasion

[Gunther von Rittersburg]

In my Grand Campaign as the HRE, I have reached that 'lovely' time of when the Mongols and Timurids begin expanding in Europe.
The Mongols either glitched or somethin, but they wandered around for awhile before settling into the Kiev region and expanding into Vilnius.
The Timurids have taken most of Turkey, and the northern Holy Lands.

So what are winning tactics against these guys? I'd heard that retreating to bridges and other bottleneck areas are good against the Mongols, but I doubt I can rely on that tactic too much, especially in the North. Sieges are most likely gonna be how our forces engage. What are good tactics in sieges? Ballista towers are all built.

Same for the Timurids. What are the best tactics in sieges? Does bottlenecking work with them too, even with their elephants?

[TheButterflyComposer]

Honestly it varies from game to game. Sometimes they just conquer their spawn regions and the general area around it. I have never truly seen a clever Mongol or Timurid AI, which places them under many of the European factions (who can have moments of brilliance in different games).
Basically if all they are going to do is sit there, build up your forces and crush them one city at a time.
If they actually try fighting you, limit their movement. Destory their ships whenever you see them. Trap them in their own territory (easiest to do with the Mongols in eastern Poland) and then deal with them one army at a time, falling back and rebuilding after hitting each one. Then slowly advance forward. Stone walling works quite well, espeically in your situation, where I assume you are up to at least being capable of producing quality troops.
For actual sieges, spearmen as always are good and riding out to disrupt their masses of archers messes their formations and morale up. Be very careful of doing this with the Timurids though. Their guns will shank light cav if they get caught in their fire and heavy cav will be crushed by elephants.
The Mongols are qite easy to deal with but the Timurids are a little harder. Fortunatly in most games you have the hidden option: get them to fight each other. This works at least sven out of the ten times I've done it so far.

[CHE]

Originally posted by Jack Skellington:

In my Grand Campaign as the HRE, I have reached that 'lovely' time of when the Mongols and Timurids begin expanding in Europe.
The Mongols either glitched or somethin, but they wandered around for awhile before settling into the Kiev region and expanding into Vilnius.
The Timurids have taken most of Turkey, and the northern Holy Lands.

So what are winning tactics against these guys? I'd heard that retreating to bridges and other bottleneck areas are good against the Mongols, but I doubt I can rely on that tactic too much, especially in the North. Sieges are most likely gonna be how our forces engage. What are good tactics in sieges? Ballista towers are all built.

Same for the Timurids. What are the best tactics in sieges? Does bottlenecking work with them too, even with their elephants?

In sieges, heavy infantry are a major factor - so bring your best.

Also, whoever is defending has a huge morale advantage if they are fighting in the town centre. If the enemy is defending, and retreat to the town centrre, I'd suggest you wipde them out with missiles, if you have the missile advantage. If you don't have the missle advantage, I suggest you try to eliminate as many as possible BEFORE they reach the town centre - e.g. by sending fast units around the streets to positions where they can block the retreat of enemy units.

As for elephants, what I do is focus on making them run amok by using fire arrows and/or gunpowder weapons.

As with field battles, it is wise to elimiate their generals early on....

[Gunther von Rittersburg]

Originally posted by CHE:

Originally posted by Jack Skellington:

In my Grand Campaign as the HRE, I have reached that 'lovely' time of when the Mongols and Timurids begin expanding in Europe.
The Mongols either glitched or somethin, but they wandered around for awhile before settling into the Kiev region and expanding into Vilnius.
The Timurids have taken most of Turkey, and the northern Holy Lands.

So what are winning tactics against these guys? I'd heard that retreating to bridges and other bottleneck areas are good against the Mongols, but I doubt I can rely on that tactic too much, especially in the North. Sieges are most likely gonna be how our forces engage. What are good tactics in sieges? Ballista towers are all built.

Same for the Timurids. What are the best tactics in sieges? Does bottlenecking work with them too, even with their elephants?

In sieges, heavy infantry are a major factor - so bring your best.

Also, whoever is defending has a huge morale advantage if they are fighting in the town centre. If the enemy is defending, and retreat to the town centrre, I'd suggest you wipde them out with missiles, if you have the missile advantage. If you don't have the missle advantage, I suggest you try to eliminate as many as possible BEFORE they reach the town centre - e.g. by sending fast units around the streets to positions where they can block the retreat of enemy units.

As for elephants, what I do is focus on making them run amok by using fire arrows and/or gunpowder weapons.

As with field battles, it is wise to elimiate their generals early on....

Can my mounted crossbowmen go one-on-one with the Mongol mounted archers? Those are the absolute killers for me, is those mounted archers! Its, literally, a machine gun in the Medieval world

Hopefully I can use these tactics to crush these Mongols

[TheButterflyComposer]

Same way you deal with mouted archers in RTW. Trap them.
CHE has it right when they say that one of the best ways to blunt Mongol attacks is just have an advanced balanced army (five cav, five archers and ten infantry) in your frontline ciites. Watch them struggle to take even one without bringing three armies.
Remember, they have number NOW, but you have a massive empire by this point and can bury them with armies once you start pushing everything in one direction. Make them pay for any advance they make, try to kill any routing units...basically, kill as many as you can before they get a city and can start repairing things. Then try and get it back.

[Turtler]

The Mongol and Timurid strength comes from momentum, manuever, and firepower. Neutralize those and you will seriously kneecap them.

In general I find it best to-even in the countryside- find a strong position, goad them into attacking, and then stand like a rock as much as possible, refusing to be baited out except to run down routers (and even then,...). But city defenses are particularly painful for them. Don't underestimate their ability to wheel around even within a city though.

I'm not sure how far along you are, but Imperial Reiters are great counters to the like sof Elephants and horse archers. Especially because they combine a few of their advantages and negate a few of their weaknesses.

And like they said, destroy their troops. Try to kill entire stacks, with emphasis on their characters. Without them they will collapse.

It also helps if you have invested some work in assassins. They play by the same rules you and the other AI do; once all their characters- or at least the Imperial Family- are dead the faction collapses into rebels. Rebels who will lack the OMG WHAAT star and skull mixture that both flavors of Genghisid have. That makes it easier for them to get rubbed out.

I'd also suggest studying a bit of the victories the Koreans, Japanese, Russians, Maluks, and This guy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alauddin_Khilji#Mongol_invasions had over them, as well as Mongol and Timurid victories. They should give you some ideas of how the Mongols fight, what probably won't work agianst them, and what will.

In particular, my use of ambushes and tripwire forts against the Mongol and Timurid doomstacks was inspired by Alauddin's.

And above all, remember: You can replenish your troops. They can't as much.

[Gunther von Rittersburg]

Originally posted by Turtler:

The Mongol and Timurid strength comes from momentum, manuever, and firepower. Neutralize those and you will seriously kneecap them.

In general I find it best to-even in the countryside- find a strong position, goad them into attacking, and then stand like a rock as much as possible, refusing to be baited out except to run down routers (and even then,...). But city defenses are particularly painful for them. Don't underestimate their ability to wheel around even within a city though.

I'm not sure how far along you are, but Imperial Reiters are great counters to the like sof Elephants and horse archers. Especially because they combine a few of their advantages and negate a few of their weaknesses.

And like they said, destroy their troops. Try to kill entire stacks, with emphasis on their characters. Without them they will collapse.

It also helps if you have invested some work in assassins. They play by the same rules you and the other AI do; once all their characters- or at least the Imperial Family- are dead the faction collapses into rebels. Rebels who will lack the OMG WHAAT star and skull mixture that both flavors of Genghisid have. That makes it easier for them to get rubbed out.

I'd also suggest studying a bit of the victories the Koreans, Japanese, Russians, Maluks, and This guy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alauddin_Khilji#Mongol_invasions had over them, as well as Mongol and Timurid victories. They should give you some ideas of how the Mongols fight, what probably won't work agianst them, and what will.

In particular, my use of ambushes and tripwire forts against the Mongol and Timurid doomstacks was inspired by Alauddin's.

And above all, remember: You can replenish your troops. They can't as much.

Assasins are a 90-10 chance of failure...

Korean, Japanese, Russians, Maluks all had different armies and tactics than Western Europe and even Medieval Germany had. How can their tactics help?

To stop the Mongol mobility would be..how? We're fighting in Russia, Land of the Flat Plains. Not much options to corner them. My Imperial Knights were able to run down some mounted archers..and is it just me or can their archers and artillery not miss even if they wanted?

I do have Reiters in some regions. So far, no land engagements with the Timurids yet! Hopefully I can get more defensive positions before we attack..

[Turtler]

Originally posted by Jack Skellington:

Assasins are a 90-10 chance of failure...

Only if you haven't been using them at all; once you start leveling an agent or two you start unlocking various buildings that will let your spies become more powerful, on top of the successes of a given agent improving them.

So use 'em.

Originally posted by Jack Skellington:

Korean, Japanese, Russians, Maluks all had different armies and tactics than Western Europe and even Medieval Germany had. How can their tactics help?

Simple; the armies are different but the same principles are still useful. It's hard to get an army more different from the modern West than those of the Spring and Autumn Chinese fiefdoms, but there's a reason why people still read Sun Tzu's Art of War.

If the Mongols and Timurids had difficulty breaking through a fort line in India (like they did against Khillij) they'll probably suffer against one in Germany, Poland, or whatever you got to.

Ditto foot archers in defensible terrain, like the Koreans used (though that's more useful for when I'm playing England).

Originally posted by Jack Skellington:

To stop the Mongol mobility would be..how? We're fighting in Russia, Land of the Flat Plains. Not much options to corner them.

Who said anything about cornering them?

Let them try and break your formations and get shot up or hacked down as they try.

In terms of stopping Mongol mobility, well if the terrain isn't naturally conductive to it, shape it.

Built forts (which you can do even in enemy territory). On the open fields find a spot- even flat planes have some variation- and set up a nice hedgehog of infantry, missile troops, and cavalry that can withstand enemy charges or missile attacks and fire back harder than they can.

You've got a lot of options avalible to you, so don't panic.

Originally posted by Jack Skellington:

My Imperial Knights were able to run down some mounted archers.

Yeaaaaahh.... that is not a great move. You fell into the exact same trap they used to batter a Polish-Bohemian-German army to death at Legnica.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Legnica

And one of their favorite tricks in general. The Parthians may have helped codify the idea of the Parting Shot but the Mongols raised it to an absolute Art Form.

So *DO NOT* chase their horse archers with your heavy cavalry. You are just playing to their strengths. You're not likely to catch them, but you are likely to catch dozens of man and horse killing arrows in the attempt. The number of exceptions to this rule where it is a good idea to charge at them ar every, very rare.

That is why I emphasize not chasing Mongol horse archers, but forcing them to go on the offensive and refusing to be baited out into chases like that.

Originally posted by Jack Skellington:

.and is it just me or can their archers and artillery not miss even if they wanted?

Yes, indeed, their ranged arsenals are very, very, very painful. Which is why you should figure out a way to neutralize them. By getting bigger, scarier missile troops who can outshoot them, or fighting in conditions where missile troops aren't as useful (like ambushes).

Originally posted by Jack Skellington:

I do have Reiters in some regions. So far, no land engagements with the Timurids yet! Hopefully I can get more defensive positions before we attack..

Understandable.

Remmeber though: any position can be a defensive one if used right. So take care.

And good luck!


EDIT: Also, for all my mentions of the historical record regarding the Mongols, keep in mind one area where the game plays them down. Their intelligence networks.

Historically they were incredible at spinning webs of spies and gleaming intelligence. By the time they make their entrance on the map they had already been studying Europe and the MENA for years and had a very, very good idea of where everything was, how it all fit together (or didn't), strengths, weaknesses, and who was tied to who before the first bow was drawn.

Here? They basically start in a massive blob and then spread out. It's ok since they do have some guidance from the AI and natural instincts, but they certain'y don't have the kind of knowledge they had historically, or the player can have.

Take advantage of that.

[CHE]

You might find it useful recruiting Alan Light Cavalry mercenaries (they are very fast, armour-piercing light cavalry - useful for catching up with missile cavalry, and even chewing up heavy cavalry if used carefully, due to their armour-piercing capability) -

http://totalwar.honga.net/unit.php?v=m2tw&f=slave&d=Alan_Light_Cavalry&encode=en

These pages show how you can recruit and train your assassins to be very skilled:

http://totalwar.honga.net/traits.php?v=m2tw&f=hre&c=assassin&encode=en
http://totalwar.honga.net/retinue.php?v=m2tw&f=hre&c=assassin&encode=en

[Gunther von Rittersburg]

Originally posted by CHE:

You might find it useful recruiting Alan Light Cavalry mercenaries (they are very fast, armour-piercing light cavalry - useful for catching up with missile cavalry, and even chewing up heavy cavalry if used carefully, due to their armour-piercing capability) -

http://totalwar.honga.net/unit.php?v=m2tw&f=slave&d=Alan_Light_Cavalry&encode=en

These pages show how you can recruit and train your assassins to be very skilled:

http://totalwar.honga.net/traits.php?v=m2tw&f=hre&c=assassin&encode=en
http://totalwar.honga.net/retinue.php?v=m2tw&f=hre&c=assassin&encode=en

Would Armoured sergeants also work? Cause currently I dont have enough Generals down there for a Alan Light Calvary Mercenary recruiting mission, and the Mongol Front is in northern Russia....

[CHE]

Originally posted by Jack Skellington:

Originally posted by CHE:

You might find it useful recruiting Alan Light Cavalry mercenaries (they are very fast, armour-piercing light cavalry - useful for catching up with missile cavalry, and even chewing up heavy cavalry if used carefully, due to their armour-piercing capability) -

http://totalwar.honga.net/unit.php?v=m2tw&f=slave&d=Alan_Light_Cavalry&encode=en

These pages show how you can recruit and train your assassins to be very skilled:

http://totalwar.honga.net/traits.php?v=m2tw&f=hre&c=assassin&encode=en
http://totalwar.honga.net/retinue.php?v=m2tw&f=hre&c=assassin&encode=en

Would Armoured sergeants also work? Cause currently I dont have enough Generals down there for a Alan Light Calvary Mercenary recruiting mission, and the Mongol Front is in northern Russia....

Armoured sergeants are great at melee versus cavalry, but missle cavalry can kill them at a distance....

[[TUUONCUOGB]BothChicken]

One thing I found to be particularly effective against elephants are catapults. Even Ballistas can work too, trebuchets are a bit too inaccurate though. Since both types of elephants are ranged, they'll shoot at you first, and in a shooting match catapults/ballistas tend to beat elephants since elephants are a much larger and thus easier to hit target.

[TheButterflyComposer]

If you have a citadel on the frontier, always defend it well and never autoresolve. Those two factions suck, SUCK at taking all three layers of defenses down. Espesically when you consdie that the armies they spawn with have like perhaps five infantry units. Take those out and they can't do much.

[Ruinae Retroque Rursus]

Stuff stakes behind the main gate. Providing they don't have good siege weapons, they'll break down the gate, get burnt by oil (if you're playing Retrofit which you probably aren't)....

... and get murdered on stakes.

I'm busy dealing with the Mongols and my tactic so far has been to sit and camp in my stone cities & wait for them to butcher themselves. Unfortunately, the Timurids start in Russia where I only have Wooden Walls....

[Kronk]

It varies evry time but by now their armies should be pretty spread out. It is a good tactic to take them one by one with two or three of your armies. In open battle cavalry and missile troops are essential to deal with their mounted archers, and run them down if they flee. In general, be aggressive, you may not be able to defend all your settlements, so launch your own attacks, take their cities. If you lose troops, use mercenaries to keep the attack ungoing. AI always thinks defensive if they see you attack they probably will retreat any way, and even if they dont, you can always recapture some settlements, because it is easy to get an army in your homeland. Make sure your towns have maximum free garrison, so they dont get easy sieges. Im not a huge fan of leaving a lot of forces behind in cities/castles because you never know where their gonna strike and you may end up fighting in open battle anyway because they surpassed your heavy defended city and went on to the next one.

[Gunther von Rittersburg]

Originally posted by aidenpons:

Stuff stakes behind the main gate. Providing they don't have good siege weapons, they'll break down the gate, get burnt by oil (if you're playing Retrofit which you probably aren't)....

... and get murdered on stakes.

I'm busy dealing with the Mongols and my tactic so far has been to sit and camp in my stone cities & wait for them to butcher themselves. Unfortunately, the Timurids start in Russia where I only have Wooden Walls....

Dont think HRE units can lay down stakes....

Armoured Spearmen set in their special formation at the gates, has proven to be deadly to the Mongols when they charge in. Got their general's a couple times.


I took the Mongols last region! I got a notice saying their armies were heading back East. But 1-2 turns later, I get a notice saying their armies were approaching my lands. They still have a few armies still in Europe. Does this mean that they can still take regions until they die out?