Could anyone help me with pikemen?

[The Dark Spectacled Admiral]

I'm playing as spain and was extremely excited to unlock the Tercio pikemen, for I loved to use pikemen in other total war games. Yet it seems that my pikemen seem to break formation and pull out their sword immediatly following every infantry charge. They have never once been able to stay in pike formation and can be fell by much weaker infantry. Is this a problem, am I doing something wrong, am I completely insane and pikes are op and im mental? Any advice on how to effectivly use pikemen would be greatly appreciated.

[CHE]

Originally posted by Comes Orientis Irnys:

I'm playing as spain and was extremely excited to unlock the Tercio pikemen, for I loved to use pikemen in other total war games. Yet it seems that my pikemen seem to break formation and pull out their sword immediatly following every infantry charge. They have never once been able to stay in pike formation and can be fell by much weaker infantry. Is this a problem, am I doing something wrong, am I completely insane and pikes are op and im mental? Any advice on how to effectivly use pikemen would be greatly appreciated.

I've heard people say that pike units in M2TW don't function well, but I find them fairly easy to use effectively.

If I'm to give you advice, I'd need to know more details.

[The Dark Spectacled Admiral]

Originally posted by CHE:

Originally posted by Comes Orientis Irnys:

I'm playing as spain and was extremely excited to unlock the Tercio pikemen, for I loved to use pikemen in other total war games. Yet it seems that my pikemen seem to break formation and pull out their sword immediatly following every infantry charge. They have never once been able to stay in pike formation and can be fell by much weaker infantry. Is this a problem, am I doing something wrong, am I completely insane and pikes are op and im mental? Any advice on how to effectivly use pikemen would be greatly appreciated.

I've heard people say that pike units in M2TW don't function well, but I find them fairly easy to use effectively.

If I'm to give you advice, I'd need to know more details.

I fear it is a little hard to explain, but it seems that after my pikemen get charged by any enemy unit they will get zero kills with their pikes extended and immediately break and enter mele with their swords, its as if they were not in pike square formation at all. This seems to happen every time, my Tercios will get zero kills before being routed by an enemy in a head on charge.

Sometimes I notice that my pikemen will seem to enter a formation wherein the first three ranks will hold their pikes in a special way, and other times only the first two ranks will drop their spears in a different fashion. It seems that the pikes are more effective in the first scenario I described but they seem to randomly enter that formation and only rarely, I don't know how to replicate it. Is it possible I'm doing something wrong?

Sorry for the vague description, and thanks for the help.

[Ruinae Retroque Rursus]

1) Spear wall ON. Obviously.
2) Guard mode ON.
3) Don't tell your pikes to attack a unit unless you want them to go on the offensive.
4) Pikes suck when attacked in the rear and the side.
4a) Pikes also suck if one enemy man manages to get in the midst of the pikes.

5) The Kingdoms expansions may possible help with your issue...
6) Stuffing men in the midst of pikes (Spear Militia) on Guard Mode may also help

7) Pikes are considerably more useful when defending cities, because they can't be outmanouvered.

8) Install TATW if you feel so inclined and use the Dwarven pikemen, Vault Wardens. Those things are deadly.
8a) Install DaC if you feel so inclined and use the Dwarven Vault Wardens mixed in with Dwarven Halberdmen. That's just downright OP.



Pikes are fiddly to use at best, which is why the Kingdoms expansion works better for them - cavalry in vanilla are extremely powerful because of the buggy game engine.

[CHE]

Originally posted by Comes Orientis Irnys:

Originally posted by CHE:

I've heard people say that pike units in M2TW don't function well, but I find them fairly easy to use effectively.

If I'm to give you advice, I'd need to know more details.

I fear it is a little hard to explain, but it seems that after my pikemen get charged by any enemy unit they will get zero kills with their pikes extended and immediately break and enter mele with their swords, its as if they were not in pike square formation at all. This seems to happen every time, my Tercios will get zero kills before being routed by an enemy in a head on charge.

Sometimes I notice that my pikemen will seem to enter a formation wherein the first three ranks will hold their pikes in a special way, and other times only the first two ranks will drop their spears in a different fashion. It seems that the pikes are more effective in the first scenario I described but they seem to randomly enter that formation and only rarely, I don't know how to replicate it. Is it possible I'm doing something wrong?

Sorry for the vague description, and thanks for the help.

The details that would help include:

(1) terrain
(2) unit commands (e.g. guard mode on or off? Phalanx mode on or off?)
(3) was the unit depleted by missile fire before melee?
(4) was the unit already in melee combat when charged?
(5) where did the charge come from in relation to the pike unit's front? (pike units are only strong in frontal fighting - the sides and rear are quite vulnerable)
(6) did you order your pike unit to move or attack? Or was your pike unit not moving when the enemy charge came?
(7) what type of unit was the attacker?
(8) unit scale (I use huge unit scale - i.e. 120 soldiers per pike unit, if I remember correctly) - maybe smaller unit scales have a different performance in combat?)

[CHE]

Originally posted by aidenpons:

1) Spear wall ON. Obviously.
2) Guard mode ON.
3) Don't tell your pikes to attack a unit unless you want them to go on the offensive.
4) Pikes suck when attacked in the rear and the side.
4a) Pikes also suck if one enemy man manages to get in the midst of the pikes.

5) The Kingdoms expansions may possible help with your issue...
6) Stuffing men in the midst of pikes (Spear Militia) on Guard Mode may also help

7) Pikes are considerably more useful when defending cities, because they can't be outmanouvered.

8) Install TATW if you feel so inclined and use the Dwarven pikemen, Vault Wardens. Those things are deadly.
8a) Install DaC if you feel so inclined and use the Dwarven Vault Wardens mixed in with Dwarven Halberdmen. That's just downright OP.



Pikes are fiddly to use at best, which is why the Kingdoms expansion works better for them - cavalry in vanilla are extremely powerful because of the buggy game engine.

Yeah, that's useful advice

[Taiwan Number One]

You MUST double or triple stack them. What that means is during the deployment phase, you stretch out one unit of pikemen as far as you can, and then do the same thing with one or two ohter units of pikemen over the first unit of pikemen. Make them a group, put them on guard mode, and they become an effective unit. Be sure to keep them from being flanked, or being hit by missle attacks.

[Username Here]

One tip is to try to be stationary. If you see cav charging at you, stop and let them crash into your men.

[The Dark Spectacled Admiral]

Seriously, thanks for the advice everyone.

I've played rome and rome 2 prior to this and I'm using my pikemen in the exact same fashion I would in those games but they seem to just break formation much, much, much faster than in rome.

aidenpons had mentioned that pikes suck when an enemy enters your formation, this is what always happens, unlike rome where my pikemen can hold an enemy for minutes, here the enemy walks straight into my units completely ignoring the pikes almost always.

Once again, thanks for the advice, I'll try to implement some of the tips you all gave the next time I play and expirement a bit to see if I can use my pikes better.

[Dark Angel]

I think the Pikes are deliberately designed to disorder if they are moving; they are not all-powerful and this is reflected in their disordering and the fact that they tend to attack with sword, particularly in close confines like castles or a narrow breach. Use them in open spaces, static and in 'guard mode' to get best use from them. If you are going to provoke an enemy into contact, try moving closer to them but stopping short of contact, this will usually 'pull' an A/I unit into contact.

It's a common problem, like the general lack of understanding of the use of 'open order' and 'close order' units. Some units need room to swing; others don't. Halberdiers and Billmen fall into this category.

[Morkonan]

A long time ago, there was a bug with many polearm units - They would always opt to use their secondary weapon when attacking instead of their polearm/pike/spear. I don't know if it was ever fixed, but some small bit of my memory wants to declare that it was. I know that some mods did fix the behavior and it's possible that Kingdoms includes a fix, as well. It may be worth looking up.

[Taiwan Number One]

I want to say that was fixed as I've seen pikemen killing with their pikes though they are still prone toward using their short swords. I miss my hoplites :(

[CHE]

Originally posted by GodOfHeWhoSleepsOnRailroads:

I want to say that was fixed as I've seen pikemen killing with their pikes though they are still prone toward using their short swords. I miss my hoplites :(

As I said above: "I've heard people say that pike units in M2TW don't function well, but I find them fairly easy to use effectively."

[Emmental]

The buggy pike wall thing does seem to be an issue, but they can be effective if used on mass and overlapping so enough of them keep the pikes down to keep the enemy away. One on one with any unit they always get massacred.

[CHE]

Originally posted by Legendary Bloated Glowing One:

The buggy pike wall thing does seem to be an issue, but they can be effective if used on mass and overlapping so enough of them keep the pikes down to keep the enemy away. One on one with any unit they always get massacred.

As I said above: "I've heard people say that pike units in M2TW don't function well, but I find them fairly easy to use effectively."

Maybe you and some others on this thread have difficulty using them, but it doesn't mean that happens for everyone. I suggest you learn how to use them, from those who use them effectively.

[Taiwan Number One]

CHE, can you describe how you use them? I've done a fair bit of testing with pikemen in custom battles, and the only thing a single unit of pikemen are decent against are cavalry and that's only
if I'm on huge unit scale and only if they are charged head on.