Westeros vs Middle Earth (Books)

[Midget Nipple]

Man isn't this brilliant! Here is what i had in mind.

The middle earth army would be a combined army of rohan and gondor set in the third age and the westerosi army would exclude the iron islands, the north and dorne because they are abit to unorthodox for my taste in comparing and it would be set in 298 AC.

Remember that this is the books we are talking about so we will be ignoring the movies and series completely. In the books the gondorian soldiers don't have full plate armour like they have in the books and i think that is important to remember. Not even the most powerful knights in al of middle earth the knights of Dol Amroth have full plate armour. This is more like how gondorian soldiers would look like:
http://abepapakhian.deviantart.com/art/Soldier-of-Gondor-193543883
http://abepapakhian.deviantart.com/art/Gondorian-Cavalry-196020513
http://tolkiengateway.net/w/images/2/24/Jan_Pospisil_-_Dunedain_at_War_concept.jpg

The westerosi forces have acces to full plate armour and plate barding so all the knights would have full plate armour. Half of the knights would have plate barding and the other half would have regular barding. The men at arms and dismounted men at arms would have half plate armour and no barding and the light cavalry would have mail and no barding.

An important factor to consider is the Numenorean blood that about a third of the gondorian soldiers have since it naturaly makes them taller, stronger and quicker and it makes them live for 350 - 400 years.

Another important factor is the fact that the numenoreans learned to create weapons from the noldor so they should be pretty ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ sharp.

I would like to do 3 diffrent kinds of battles to determine which fantasy world would suck it.
First would be a straight up field battle second would be a siege battle and third would be a naval battle.

Field battle:

Westerosi army: All kingdoms except, Dorne, the Iron Islands and the North
Commanders: Stannis Baratheon, Randyll Tarly, Willem Darry, Brynden Tully
Strenght: 25 000 * 8000 Cavalry * 5000 Knights, 2000 Mounted Men at Arms, 1000 Light cavalry * 17 000 Infantry* 5000 Men at arms, 8000 Levies, 2000 Longbowmen, 2000 Crossbowmen

Middle earth army: Rohan and Gondor
Commanders: Aragorn, Gandalf, Eomer
Strenght: 25 000 * 8000 Cavalry * 6000 Mounted Rohirrim, 1000 Gondor Cavalry, 1000 Knights of Dol Amroth * 17 000 Infantry * 3000 Dismounted Rohirrim, 10 000 Gondorian Infantry, 3000 Gondorian Archers, 500 Ithillien Rangers, 500 Blackroot Vale Archers

Battle would take place on a plain because we don't want any side to have an unfair advantage.

Deployment:

Westerosi Army:
The right flank under the command of Brynden Tully would have 1500 Knights, 1000 mounted Men at Arms and 500 Light cavalry and Randyl Tarly would have the same on the left flank. The center under the command of Willem Darry would have 3000 Men at Arms, 6000 levies, 2000 longbowmen and 2000 crossbowmen. The rest of the army 2000 Knights, 2000 Men at Arms and 2000 Levies would be under the overall commander Stannis Baratheons command.

Middle Earth Army:
The right flank under gandalf would have 1000 gondor cavalry and 1000 knights of Dol Amroth and 2000 mounted Rohirrim . The Left flank under Eomer would have 4000 mounted Rohirrim. The Center commanded by the overall commander Aragorn would have all 17 000 infantry.

I think that Stannis would win because he is an extremely competent commander that would sit back and overwatch the battle instead of fighting himself like Aragorn and watch the ebb and flow of the battle to properly alocate his reserves and preform flanking manouvers.
However it is also the tactical incompetence of the middle earth way of fighting that will end up smashing the testicles of the middle earth army

Siege:

Scenario 1 Westeros attack Minas Tirith

Westerosi army: All kingdoms except, Dorne, the Iron Islands and the North
Commanders: Stannis Baratheon
Strenght: 15 000 * 5000 Cavalry * 10 000 Infantry

Middle earth army: Rohan and Gondor
Commanders: Aragorn
Strenght: 5000 * 1000 Rohirrim Cavalry * 4000 Infantry

Stannis is a proven warrior when it comes to sieges having taken dragonstone, and nearly taken King's Landing against all the ods. In his attack on the well garrisoned king's landing nearly his entire navy with it's marines were burned up by the wildfire before reaching the city walls and still he was on the brink of winning before the 60 000 strong army of the reach and westerlands attacked him from the side. The fact that the 60 00 strong army was able to take him unavares was not slack on his part but bad luck.

However the strong contingent of rohan riders might be able to cause some big damage in sally outs on both day and night.

Scenario 2 Middle Earth attack Storm's End

Westerosi army: All kingdoms except, Dorne, the Iron Islands and the North
Commanders: Stannis Baratheon
Strenght: 5000 * 1000 Cavalry * 4000 Infantry

Middle earth army: Rohan and Gondor
Commanders: Aragorn
Strenght: 15 000 * 5000 Cavalry * 10 000 Infantry

Stannis is a proven siege defender having defended storns end for the better part of a year with a few hundred soldiers against 50 000 + soldiers. He and his garrison ate rats in the end and never gave up and it takes a strong leader to keep soldiers from desserting in instances like that.

The men of the west have never besieged a city or castle before so they have no experience in it.

Naval battle:

Westeros: Royal fleet
Commanders: Stannis Baratheon
Strenght: Around 200 ships about half of that being war galleys and rest being cogs and carracks

Middle earth : Gondor fleet
Commanders: Aragorn
Strenght: ???????

Here again Stannis is an excellent naval commander having done 3 Amphibious assaults and 2 sea battles. And won all except 1 for ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ reasons.

I don't know how many ships gondor has and what their capabilities are but the war galleys of the royal fleet look like this:
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/4/4c/Fury.jpg

Im sorry to say it middle earth fans but it looks to me like middle earth is gonna get the ♥♥♥♥ everytime. Please tell me in depth and detail what you think of my post and if im wrong and why and what the forces of gondor and rohan can do to make westeros the ♥♥♥♥♥.

[BERUBARA]

I can't see the point.
Middle Earth overall population is lower than that of Westeros.

I also see you excluded elves and dwarves, thus cutting some cultures from your calculation. You are also counting only little of what Gondor could field.

[Inardesco]

You're only taking into account Gondor and Rohan, add Rhun, Harad and Arnor to that list and you'll have a much better line-up.

Rhun has the best cavalry and managed to keep fighting, even after the Ring had been destroyed, for years to come. Aragorn led many campaigns, alongside Eomer and Dale, against the Easterlings before finally subdueing them; He never managed to completely defeat the Easterlings!

The Harad have their Mumakil that would send pretty much all undisciplined forces on the run + the Corsairs have rekt the Gondor navy for hundreds of years. Harad also has excellent archers.

Dale is known for their archers and dwarven-quality armour. No armour in Westeros would come near their quality and even then, Dale got crushed, as did the Dwarves, by the Easterling army in the War of the Ring.

Arnor and Gondor used to have the same quality in terms of weapons and armour, however since most of the Dunedain, descendants of the Kingdom of Arnor, lived in Eriador at the time of the Third Age my guess would be that the quality of the weapons used by the Dunedain would be of Westeresse quality; Numenoreon made. Which, would also be used by the Knights of Dol Amroth. The Numenoreans were some of the finest weaponmiths in Middle-Earth, second to the Noldor.

So while most of the forces of Arnor and Gondor would use weapons and armour crafted in the Third Age, many of the Dunedain and Knigts of Dol Amroth would be using weapons and armour that were crafted in the Second Age. Aragon's sword in one such example.

So taking this in account would change up most of the battles that you've described, they also tend to be biased in the favour of GoT.

Aragorn was at the time of the War of the Ring; 87 years old. He served and fought under King Thengel and Ecthelion II. He led an small expeditionary force into the Corsair city of Umbar, burning their fleet and killing their lord (http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Surprise_Attack_on_Umbar). When he crossed into Gondor from Rohan he managed to rout the Corsairs from Linhir and later defeat them at Pelargir before sailing north to block of the retreat from the Pellenor Fields.

Thus it's rather early to come to your conclusion, mainly, because the military conquests and tactics used in the Lord of The Rings during the War of the Ring aren't described much and focusses more on the individual combat; King Theoden vs Nazgul, Legolas and Gimli at Helmsdeep, Boromir vs the Uruks at the Argonath.

Next to that, the opponents that are fought are different aswell; proffesional armies against hordes of ill-equipped creatures bend on destroying you.

[Midget Nipple]

Oprindeligt skrevet af INTVS NERO FORIS CATO:

I can't see the point.
Middle Earth overall population is lower than that of Westeros.

I also see you excluded elves and dwarves, thus cutting some cultures from your calculation. You are also counting only little of what Gondor could field.

Clearly you have not read anything other then description. A combined army of gondor and rohan vs westeros army and both armies have the same amount of troops otherwise it isn't fair.

[Midget Nipple]

You two havent read what i wrote.

[Midget Nipple]

This is what i see. In middle earth there is no field battle tactics at all other then CHARGE. Westerosi warfare is much more complex and certainly when you have a brilliant commander like Stannis.
Seriously be reasonable how well would a non barded chainmail rohirrim with 7 foot spears do against a full plate armoured knight with a full plate barded horse with 12 feet long lance that has trained his entire life to hit you with it. Seriously in a head on charge of a unit of rohirim and a unit of knights the first rank will be dead before they have chance to strike back.

This is what i see the cavalry fight won't be close at all because the well armoured knights would anihalate the rohirrim easily and then strike the engaged gondor infantry in the flanks and rear.
The infantry fight would be even but when the 800 kg knights in tight formation arived to take the gondorian infantrys anal virginity they would make the rohirrim charge at pelennor fields look cute.
You guys don't seem to realise that i am talking books here ignore the stupid movies and series. The gondorian soldiers didnt have acces to plate.

[Inardesco]

You haven't read what I wrote. The battles written about aren't detailed; This means that we CANT conclude what tactics have been used during the battles. If we don't know what tactics were used, we can't compare both.

Next to that, I've stated that both face different opponents. The US Army fighting in Afghanistan would be trained to fight insurgents instead of being trained to fight a professional army, because both require different tactics.

Besides that, Rohan isn't known for their military prowess since their cavalry is weaker than their Gondorian and Rhun counterparts BUT they were strong enough to defeat their main opponents; pillaging orcs and Wildlings from Dunland. If you want to compare cavalry based combat you shouldn't take a look at Rohan but rather Gondor. Their Swan Knights do use plate armour.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Teenage Midget Twisted Nipple:

Seriously be reasonable how well would a non barded chainmail rohirrim with 7 foot spears do against a full plate armoured knight with a full plate barded horse with 12 feet long lance that has trained his entire life to hit you with it. Seriously in a head on charge of a unit of rohirim and a unit of knights the first rank will be dead before they have chance to strike back.

Well...I don't know, let's ask Salahadin shall we? A kurdish fellow that used to fight against the French in the Holy Land. You know, those folks on them horses like you described and beating them into pulp with "inferior" cavalry.

So what did he do, lemme think...Ah yeah, he charged his cavalry, 10-15 meters before the charge he'd turn around his horses, have them pepper the enemy cavalry with arrows before luring them away into a trap. So do tell me...How a 12ft lance is going to protect you from arrows? Or even from a trap, sure you might live and fight your way out, but you can't utilise your strength.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Teenage Midget Twisted Nipple:

This is what i see the cavalry fight won't be close at all because the well armoured knights would anihalate the rohirrim easily and then strike the engaged gondor infantry in the flanks and rear.

By that logic, aka running in like a blind idiot, the Crusades would've been easy peasy for the Crusaders because they had the strong cavalry, yet somehow the Muslims managed to gain victories over the superiourly armoured Christians. Read up on the Crusades a bit if you want some comparisons.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Teenage Midget Twisted Nipple:

The infantry fight would be even but when the 800 kg knights in tight formation arived to take the gondorian infantrys

How do you know? Do you have reference to the tactics that the Gondorian infantry used? Do you know how they deployed their forces. Are the Gondorian forces from Minas Tirith? Or is there a contingent from all the regions of Gondor? If so, that'd create a whole different scenario than only from one region in terms of unit composition.
Pelargir had excellent marines that used javelins before charging in. Dol Amroth had both the mounted and dismounted Swan Knights, honouring the ways of Numenor, Osgiliath had a mixture of rangers and levied infantry, Blackroot Vale has the finest archers of Gondor, Lossarnach had strong men wielding 2-handed axes. Then you still have the Citadel Guard, tasked with protecting the citadel and the Fountain Guard, tasked with protecting the White Tree, the latter more elite than the former.

So to recap, Gondor has access to; Sword infantry, Spear infantry, Axe-infantry, Archers, Heavy Cavalry and as far as I know, also to pikes. Unless you're absolutely stupid, you won't be charging your 800kg knights in tight formation at a row of pikes in very tight formation.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Teenage Midget Twisted Nipple:

You guys don't seem to realise that i am talking books here ignore the stupid movies and series. The gondorian soldiers didnt have acces to plate.

Yeah, and you don't seem to realise that I'm talking to you about the Books, instead of the stupid movies and series. But....You see a counterargument and fail to read through it.

[Midget Nipple]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Inardesco:

You haven't read what I wrote. The battles written about aren't detailed; This means that we CANT conclude what tactics have been used during the battles. If we don't know what tactics were used, we can't compare both.

Next to that, I've stated that both face different opponents. The US Army fighting in Afghanistan would be trained to fight insurgents instead of being trained to fight a professional army, because both require different tactics.

Besides that, Rohan isn't known for their military prowess since their cavalry is weaker than their Gondorian and Rhun counterparts BUT they were strong enough to defeat their main opponents; pillaging orcs and Wildlings from Dunland. If you want to compare cavalry based combat you shouldn't take a look at Rohan but rather Gondor. Their Swan Knights do use plate armour.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Teenage Midget Twisted Nipple:

Seriously be reasonable how well would a non barded chainmail rohirrim with 7 foot spears do against a full plate armoured knight with a full plate barded horse with 12 feet long lance that has trained his entire life to hit you with it. Seriously in a head on charge of a unit of rohirim and a unit of knights the first rank will be dead before they have chance to strike back.

Well...I don't know, let's ask Salahadin shall we? A kurdish fellow that used to fight against the French in the Holy Land. You know, those folks on them horses like you described and beating them into pulp with "inferior" cavalry.

So what did he do, lemme think...Ah yeah, he charged his cavalry, 10-15 meters before the charge he'd turn around his horses, have them pepper the enemy cavalry with arrows before luring them away into a trap. So do tell me...How a 12ft lance is going to protect you from arrows? Or even from a trap, sure you might live and fight your way out, but you can't utilise your strength.

Nowere in all of the middle earth books is it stated that rohan or gondor fought as horse archers and the crusaders didn't have such a big advantage with their superior armour to what plate would have given them.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Teenage Midget Twisted Nipple:

This is what i see the cavalry fight won't be close at all because the well armoured knights would anihalate the rohirrim easily and then strike the engaged gondor infantry in the flanks and rear.

By that logic, aka running in like a blind idiot, the Crusades would've been easy peasy for the Crusaders because they had the strong cavalry, yet somehow the Muslims managed to gain victories over the superiourly armoured Christians. Read up on the Crusades a bit if you want some comparisons.

The christians were better armoured but it wasn't drasticly more powerful then the muslims armour and an important factor that took place there that aint in middle earth is that they were fighting in the dessert were it was really hot and water was sparse and and fatiguing and that took away alot from the power of the knights

Oprindeligt skrevet af Teenage Midget Twisted Nipple:

The infantry fight would be even but when the 800 kg knights in tight formation arived to take the gondorian infantrys

How do you know? Do you have reference to the tactics that the Gondorian infantry used? Do you know how they deployed their forces. Are the Gondorian forces from Minas Tirith? Or is there a contingent from all the regions of Gondor? If so, that'd create a whole different scenario than only from one region in terms of unit composition.
Pelargir had excellent marines that used javelins before charging in. Dol Amroth had both the mounted and dismounted Swan Knights, honouring the ways of Numenor, Osgiliath had a mixture of rangers and levied infantry, Blackroot Vale has the finest archers of Gondor, Lossarnach had strong men wielding 2-handed axes. Then you still have the Citadel Guard, tasked with protecting the citadel and the Fountain Guard, tasked with protecting the White Tree, the latter more elite than the former.

Are you refering to the lossornach axemen and pelagir marines exclusivly from Third age total war or does it say anywere that those troops existed and if they do please provide because i can't find any from the official lore and books.

So to recap, Gondor has access to; Sword infantry, Spear infantry, Axe-infantry, Archers, Heavy Cavalry and as far as I know, also to pikes. Unless you're absolutely stupid, you won't be charging your 800kg knights in tight formation at a row of pikes in very tight formation.

Where does it say gondor had pikemen?

Oprindeligt skrevet af Teenage Midget Twisted Nipple:

You guys don't seem to realise that i am talking books here ignore the stupid movies and series. The gondorian soldiers didnt have acces to plate.

Yeah, and you don't seem to realise that I'm talking to you about the Books, instead of the stupid movies and series. But....You see a counterargument and fail to read through it.

[BERUBARA]

Hi mate. I have answered you in the other post.

[lazycat1984]

1st Ages Middle Earth and you got a contest. Morgoth vs Westeros and it's weighted toward Team Evil. Balrogs, dragons, a couple million orcs and trolls.You guys are arguing about Rohan which is based on 8th century Frankish Cavalry and would they be able to fight the Game of Thrones armies based on Wars of the Roses knights. It's apples and oranges.