DIY 2 Hander Fix

[Insaniac]

I’ve been looking around for something explaining how to fix the two hander bug but have been met with limited success. Does anyone know what values to change to get these units functioning as intended?

[Mile pro Libertate]

It can't truly be fixed, because it's largely related to combat animations.

CA years ago rebalanced attack and defense values to deal with it, so technically speaking, if you're running Kingdoms, the bug is already "fixed," in terms of "proper values." That would mean that if you run Retrofit Mod, the base game will have the proper values as well.

But yeah, in the true sense, the bug will remain no matter what values you give, because it has to do with animations and formation behavior. Pikes and halberds, for example, will still be functioning way below par, no matter what values they have, because pikes will still drop their weapons when they get mixed with enemy, and halberds will still take too long to windup attacks.

Some mods tried to fix such issues by forcing such units to never switch to secondary weapon, or buffing the defense of units with big windups. The thing is though, this just creates new imbalances in other areas, so the root of the problem never is actually rectified.

[Insaniac]

So just accept them as is?

[Mile pro Libertate]

Originally posted by Insaniac:

So just accept them as is?

Yeah there really is no other option.

You can get Retrofit Mod to give the base game the same values as Kingdoms expansion, but like I said, if you start messing with the values too much to try and fix two handers, you'll just end up with other stuff being out of whack.

[Insaniac]

So the two handers, can I still somehow squeeze some use out of them or?

[Mile pro Libertate]

Originally posted by Insaniac:

So the two handers, can I still somehow squeeze some use out of them or?

Depends on who you ask. Some people are fine with them as is, some say no. I am of the opinion that with certain formations, many of them can still work great, like with layering pikes on top one another.

[Insaniac]

From what I saw, even when layered the piles were not good. So what do you do with the two handers to get use out of them?

[Julius Geezer]

Originally posted by Insaniac:

From what I saw, even when layered the piles were not good. So what do you do with the two handers to get use out of them?

2handers can be devastating if you get a rear or flank charge with them. Most of them will have 'effective against armour' so if you can get them in behind armoured knights (mounted or otherwise) they will get their armour piercing attacks in and the enemy won't be able to respond so their bugged animations are less of a factor.

[Insaniac]

And walls? I heard somewhere that they make good defenders, is this correct?

[Artorath]

I strongly recommend finding a decent mod (Stainless Steel, JLMP's 2021 vanilla kingdoms, DaC etc) where this is comprehensively addressed with other export_descr_unit (EDU) issues.

The full story for two handers:
The vanilla grand campaign with respect to 2 handed units has both a stat balance problem and an animation problem.
2H swordsmen and halberds (Transylvanian peasants etc) don't have slow animation problems at all, if you give them Dismounted Feudal Knight stats they will perform like DFKs. Their stats are just garbage compared to 1 handed swords, HRE Zweihander is 14/11 vs DFK 13/21, no contest. This is further exacerbated by the defence skill parry effect, which 1h swordsmen have silly amounts of https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=915217775 so you will just have to edit their att/def in the EDU, individually.
Two handed axes and polearms (billmen?, dismounted English knights etc) have slow animations. The quick fix without quibbling over stats is to change the soldier model in the EDU to a 2h swordsman unit, e.g.
type Varangian Guard
...
soldier Zweihander
and they will use 2h sword animations (potentially looking quite silly as they stab with a flat axehead). They might feel overpowered.
You can access the EDU after unpacking the game files/downloading bare geomod (if you insist on editing vanilla yourself it's worth getting bare geomod).

Kingdoms is in a better place in this respect, two handed swords are fine, polearms/axes should be fine enough after changing the soldier entry. Get retrofit as Mile recommended and then change soldier entries if you want that balance in the grand campaign.

Originally posted by Insaniac:

So what do you do with the two handers to get use out of them?

Without changing anything, the really cheap 2 handers (woodsmen etc.) can be sandwiched with a more normal infantry unit. This prevents them getting stunlocked as much so they will have the time to attack and get kills. Don't expect them to be better than another unit of 1 handed swordsmen; they can be better than nothing at all though.

[Insaniac]

I only ever do DIY solutions, admittedly. Did it all that way in ETW, which seems to be a bit more complex to mod. How much extra defense would the two handers need to receive to be effective? I reckon it makes sense that shield guy has more defense than no-shield guy.

[Artorath]

I think you can do +2 without even thinking, then look at where attack should be, then fine tune from there. Probably +3-4 in the end.

[Insaniac]

What exactly did kingdoms do to fix the problem?

[Artorath]

Originally posted by Insaniac:

What exactly did kingdoms do to fix the problem?

Nerfed 1h damage a little, nerfed defence skill on 1h swords, buffed shield values a little, nerfed armor values a little, buffed defence skill on 2h units, buffed 2h damage a little. Overall 2h stronger in melee, slightly weaker to missiles, better overall stats. 1h lower overall stats, more reliance on shield.

I am not saying either is comprehensively good, the Real Combat formula is the starting point for decent mod EDUs, with reason.

[Mile pro Libertate]

Thanks Artorath for your thorough and very helpful overview. Awesome.

[Mile pro Libertate]

Originally posted by Artorath:

I strongly recommend finding a decent mod (Stainless Steel, JLMP's 2021 vanilla kingdoms, DaC etc) where this is comprehensively addressed with other export_descr_unit (EDU) issues.

The full story for two handers:
The vanilla grand campaign with respect to 2 handed units has both a stat balance problem and an animation problem.
2H swordsmen and halberds (Transylvanian peasants etc) don't have slow animation problems at all, if you give them Dismounted Feudal Knight stats they will perform like DFKs. Their stats are just garbage compared to 1 handed swords, HRE Zweihander is 14/11 vs DFK 13/21, no contest. This is further exacerbated by the defence skill parry effect, which 1h swordsmen have silly amounts of https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=915217775 so you will just have to edit their att/def in the EDU, individually.
Two handed axes and polearms (billmen?, dismounted English knights etc) have slow animations. The quick fix without quibbling over stats is to change the soldier model in the EDU to a 2h swordsman unit, e.g.
type Varangian Guard
...
soldier Zweihander
and they will use 2h sword animations (potentially looking quite silly as they stab with a flat axehead). They might feel overpowered.
You can access the EDU after unpacking the game files/downloading bare geomod (if you insist on editing vanilla yourself it's worth getting bare geomod).

Kingdoms is in a better place in this respect, two handed swords are fine, polearms/axes should be fine enough after changing the soldier entry. Get retrofit as Mile recommended and then change soldier entries if you want that balance in the grand campaign.

Originally posted by Insaniac:

So what do you do with the two handers to get use out of them?

Without changing anything, the really cheap 2 handers (woodsmen etc.) can be sandwiched with a more normal infantry unit. This prevents them getting stunlocked as much so they will have the time to attack and get kills. Don't expect them to be better than another unit of 1 handed swordsmen; they can be better than nothing at all though.

I'd also recommend going with a proven mod, something such as Stainless Steel.

DIY has its advantages...but some of these mods have been around for almost fifteen years, and they have put in the work, so you don't have to.

Stainless Steel in particular changes so much of the vanilla game for the better that it's not even funny. Not only will units work better, but the added campaign mechanics and immersive production value make the vanilla grand campaign pale.