so what will happen?

[Dutchgamer1982]

I am england, I have conquered every other catholic nation but one : papal states
I also conquered all orthodox nations.

I do control Constantinople, Jerusalem, Antioch and Alexandria

What will happen if I now conquer rome, is it possible for me to own it WITHOUT being excommunicated?

*heck with all 5 city's of the pentarchy under my control why cannot I just declare
-the schism healed (one church, as there ARE no orthodox nations left)
-emperor over church (the emperor is the leader of the church)
-restore the pentarchy with all 5 city's having equal standing.

sure the pope may fiel some resistance, but with every church in my realm now spreading this new "angelic church" pretty soon that popes influence would be necleticleble would it?

On a more serious tone, is it possible to have your cake and it eat too in this game?
aka be catholic, yet conquer rome and somehow not be excomminicated?

[HazardHawk]

Soon as you attack Rome you will be excommunicated.

However, take three armies with you including one with seige equipment. Blitzkrieg is the name of the game. In the same turn, declare war, take Rome, then attack and kill the pope.

Since you have no cardinal competition, the new pope gets elected and you are back in like flynn! The pope is now a roamer horde unit. If you have a worthless outlying province that just doesnt grow, you can always give that to the pope.

[Inardesco]

Or you could stop producing priests and have the Papacy die off like that. If htere are no cardinals to take the seat then a Pope can't be elected. Once the Papal States have no settlements they can't recruit their own priests anymore.

[Dutchgamer1982]

Originally posted by HazardHawk:

Soon as you attack Rome you will be excommunicated.

However, take three armies with you including one with seige equipment. Blitzkrieg is the name of the game. In the same turn, declare war, take Rome, then attack and kill the pope.

Since you have no cardinal competition, the new pope gets elected and you are back in like flynn! The pope is now a roamer horde unit. If you have a worthless outlying province that just doesnt grow, you can always give that to the pope.

that was obvious;):)
but I suspected that when I take rome and kill the pope, a new one would imedieatly be elected.
-and that he would give me a pop up like :
"hand me back rome or else"
-if I give it, I lose rome, but pope is very happy with me
-and if I decline one of two things than would happen
A : "papal states is instantly removed from play, I get to be permanently excommincated (-20 happyness in every town) and no new cardinals are elected (I get to keep the ones I have, but they will no longer be replaced after dying) Also : no more crusades.
B1 : I get excomunicated (-20 happyness), and a pop-up army of considerable size (lets say at least 1, and possibly 3-5 full stacks) with advanced papal units will pop up near rome, trying to recapture it if I somehow fend them off, the papacy will dissolve,leading to result A.
B2 : same as B1, only when I fend them off (or at least kill the pope-leader in those stacks), a new pope and more stacks are spawned... and they will keep spawning forever.

Needless to say, both the idea of permanent -20 happyness in all my city's as well as permanent having to fight for rome, no matter how many stacks I kill, are not that apealing.

You say pope will respawn as roaming and he would be friendly again, ok, get that. but would he start demanding rome back or can I just leave him roaming... make peace with papal states and further ignore him?
-not want to give him ANY province, want to own it all.

Emperor over pope... not want popes wielding real world power, he can be bisshop of my large cathedral in rome, and recieve a salary for being just that from me, the emperor. Might even allow him to be govenor of rome for me and have him sit in the mayors palace and indirectly control a small ceremonial force of a few heavy billman militia, but thats about as far as I am willing to go, rome is mine. And any pope not answering to me, gets replaced.
*and he can SHARE that power with the popes of constantinople, jerusalem, antioch and alexandria, to prevent one of them getting to powerfull.

[Dutchgamer1982]

Originally posted by Inardesco:

Or you could stop producing priests and have the Papacy die off like that. If htere are no cardinals to take the seat then a Pope can't be elected. Once the Papal States have no settlements they can't recruit their own priests anymore.

yes that could work.. could take a while though.... I own well over 100 priests...
-and who is to say the game will not "spawn" a new priest owned by the papel states faction along with their stack(s) of units should such a thing happen?
-and how would it solve the being excomminicated problem?
*I keep refusing giving rome back , and killing the stacks of spawning popes, eventually the last one dies leaving me permanently excommunucated?

---and how would this scenario work if after the last pope dies, I start building priests again.. would than somehow the papacy be reborn? aka would I have to refrain from using priests forever?
***if so maintaining happyness would become even more a problem, as using assasins to kill heritics still gives dread to my leaders, and dread makes them very bad govenours..

[Gunther von Rittersburg]

Originally posted by Inardesco:

Or you could stop producing priests and have the Papacy die off like that. If htere are no cardinals to take the seat then a Pope can't be elected. Once the Papal States have no settlements they can't recruit their own priests anymore.

That right there has led to new thoughts, plots, plans and schemes in future campaigns

The age old answer has always been you cant destroy the Papal States......but now...can you?

[Inardesco]

Originally posted by Jack Skellington:

Originally posted by Inardesco:

Or you could stop producing priests and have the Papacy die off like that. If htere are no cardinals to take the seat then a Pope can't be elected. Once the Papal States have no settlements they can't recruit their own priests anymore.

That right there has led to new thoughts, plots, plans and schemes in future campaigns

The age old answer has always been you cant destroy the Papal States......but now...can you?

Well, I haven't tried before but it can easily be tested out;

Start a new game; surrender_regions (all catholic factions) then take Rome, don't produce any priests and just hit end turn till your current priests die.

[Dutchgamer1982]

Originally posted by Jack Skellington:

Originally posted by Inardesco:

Or you could stop producing priests and have the Papacy die off like that. If htere are no cardinals to take the seat then a Pope can't be elected. Once the Papal States have no settlements they can't recruit their own priests anymore.

That right there has led to new thoughts, plots, plans and schemes in future campaigns

The age old answer has always been you cant destroy the Papal States......but now...can you?

meh irl the papal states WERE destroyed in 1870.
-the only reason they did not fall earlier is because there always was some superpower backing them.
*first byzantium
*than france
*than austria
*than france again

Once they ran out of protectors even the italian army was able to conquer them.. and we ALL know how crappy italian army's are (ww2)
Speaking of that : And it took a bloody italian facist in 1929 to give vatican city (aka the walled part of rome) legal status a a nation again.. in exchange for giving up any claims to political power, and agreeing to not have a standing army, cept the ceremonial swiss guards.

Likewise the king of france was able to "presure" the pope to move to avignon instead, and all popes in that period were french as were 98% of all cardinals.

So if one is so powerfull that one can just "take rome" one can.
And the pope would not be able to mount an army, if your power was strong enough.
-> he might go crazy and beg for help in orthodox nations if there ware any, but if not, his hands are tied.
And it would not be the first time a real life leader imprisons the pope and forces a new one to be elected that is more on his side.

So one can do the thing mussilini did with the pope, or do what byzantium did : force the church into submission, and giving up that "the church answers to no worthly leader" but instead accept the "seperation of power" model byzantium had.

the question is.. how far could one go in these things before such a church is no longer considered catholic? well I can live with a reformation, killing the pope, good happy times.

[HazardHawk]

Originally posted by Dutchgamer1982:

Originally posted by HazardHawk:

Soon as you attack Rome you will be excommunicated.

However, take three armies with you including one with seige equipment. Blitzkrieg is the name of the game. In the same turn, declare war, take Rome, then attack and kill the pope.

Since you have no cardinal competition, the new pope gets elected and you are back in like flynn! The pope is now a roamer horde unit. If you have a worthless outlying province that just doesnt grow, you can always give that to the pope.

that was obvious;):)
but I suspected that when I take rome and kill the pope, a new one would imedieatly be elected.
-and that he would give me a pop up like :
"hand me back rome or else"
-if I give it, I lose rome, but pope is very happy with me
-and if I decline one of two things than would happen
A : "papal states is instantly removed from play, I get to be permanently excommincated (-20 happyness in every town) and no new cardinals are elected (I get to keep the ones I have, but they will no longer be replaced after dying) Also : no more crusades.
B1 : I get excomunicated (-20 happyness), and a pop-up army of considerable size (lets say at least 1, and possibly 3-5 full stacks) with advanced papal units will pop up near rome, trying to recapture it if I somehow fend them off, the papacy will dissolve,leading to result A.
B2 : same as B1, only when I fend them off (or at least kill the pope-leader in those stacks), a new pope and more stacks are spawned... and they will keep spawning forever.

Needless to say, both the idea of permanent -20 happyness in all my city's as well as permanent having to fight for rome, no matter how many stacks I kill, are not that apealing.

You say pope will respawn as roaming and he would be friendly again, ok, get that. but would he start demanding rome back or can I just leave him roaming... make peace with papal states and further ignore him?
-not want to give him ANY province, want to own it all.

Emperor over pope... not want popes wielding real world power, he can be bisshop of my large cathedral in rome, and recieve a salary for being just that from me, the emperor. Might even allow him to be govenor of rome for me and have him sit in the mayors palace and indirectly control a small ceremonial force of a few heavy billman militia, but thats about as far as I am willing to go, rome is mine. And any pope not answering to me, gets replaced.
*and he can SHARE that power with the popes of constantinople, jerusalem, antioch and alexandria, to prevent one of them getting to powerfull.

First, you are only excommunicated for one turn. The next turn is election, your cardinals and your vote. Once the vote is completed, your standing with the pope goes back to full because you were elected. The excommunication ends as soon as either your faction leader or the pope dies. That is why I say Blitzkrieg. Take Rome and kill the pope the same turn. Ecommunication doesnt even make it until the next turn

Ues, you will still be at war, but who cares? Who is going to join a crusade against you?

[Dutchgamer1982]

Originally posted by HazardHawk:

Originally posted by Dutchgamer1982:

that was obvious;):)
but I suspected that when I take rome and kill the pope, a new one would imedieatly be elected.
-and that he would give me a pop up like :
"hand me back rome or else"
-if I give it, I lose rome, but pope is very happy with me
-and if I decline one of two things than would happen
A : "papal states is instantly removed from play, I get to be permanently excommincated (-20 happyness in every town) and no new cardinals are elected (I get to keep the ones I have, but they will no longer be replaced after dying) Also : no more crusades.
B1 : I get excomunicated (-20 happyness), and a pop-up army of considerable size (lets say at least 1, and possibly 3-5 full stacks) with advanced papal units will pop up near rome, trying to recapture it if I somehow fend them off, the papacy will dissolve,leading to result A.
B2 : same as B1, only when I fend them off (or at least kill the pope-leader in those stacks), a new pope and more stacks are spawned... and they will keep spawning forever.

Needless to say, both the idea of permanent -20 happyness in all my city's as well as permanent having to fight for rome, no matter how many stacks I kill, are not that apealing.

You say pope will respawn as roaming and he would be friendly again, ok, get that. but would he start demanding rome back or can I just leave him roaming... make peace with papal states and further ignore him?
-not want to give him ANY province, want to own it all.

Emperor over pope... not want popes wielding real world power, he can be bisshop of my large cathedral in rome, and recieve a salary for being just that from me, the emperor. Might even allow him to be govenor of rome for me and have him sit in the mayors palace and indirectly control a small ceremonial force of a few heavy billman militia, but thats about as far as I am willing to go, rome is mine. And any pope not answering to me, gets replaced.
*and he can SHARE that power with the popes of constantinople, jerusalem, antioch and alexandria, to prevent one of them getting to powerfull.

First, you are only excommunicated for one turn. The next turn is election, your cardinals and your vote. Once the vote is completed, you standing with the pope goes back to full because you were elected. The excommunication ends as soon as either your faction leader or the pope dies. That is why I say Blitzkrieg. Take Rome and kill the pope the same turn. Ecommunication doesnt even make it until the next turn

ok, but that what will happen AFTER that, will the pope ask to have rome back, or ask for any province to call his own...
and will it have negative consequence if I say "nope"

[HazardHawk]

Hahahahaha! Who cares? I edited... Who will join a crusade against you?

[HazardHawk]

Besides, if he stays angry, suicide your faction leader and offer some remote nongrowing castle or town to the papacy if you want in order to get peace

[GreyHuntr]

The Pope will continuously respawn with an army as long as their are priest units. The Pope will be friendly for awhile since all priests are from your nation. However the AI makes dumb attacks of opportunity all the time, so eventually that stack will attack you. Best thing to do is gift the Pope an island like Sardinia before attacking killing him and taking rome. That way he will respawn on the island and unable to attack you.

[Inardesco]

Originally posted by Dutchgamer1982:

ok, but that what will happen AFTER that, will the pope ask to have rome back, or ask for any province to call his own...
and will it have negative consequence if I say "nope"

If there are still diplomats around they can ask for the return of Rome to their banner.

Originally posted by Dutchgamer1982:

meh irl the papal states WERE destroyed in 1870.
-the only reason they did not fall earlier is because there always was some superpower backing them.

Not really, within Italy the Papal States were a viable and powerful faction that was on occasion fighting other houses within Italy for control. The Borgia's are one of the more known families to having used the Papacy to increase their control over Italy.

[Ruinae Retroque Rursus]

Originally posted by Inardesco:

Originally posted by Dutchgamer1982:

ok, but that what will happen AFTER that, will the pope ask to have rome back, or ask for any province to call his own...
and will it have negative consequence if I say "nope"

If there are still diplomats around they can ask for the return of Rome to their banner.

And you can just not give it to them.

[Inardesco]

Originally posted by aidenpons:

Originally posted by Inardesco:

If there are still diplomats around they can ask for the return of Rome to their banner.

And you can just not give it to them.

But that's not the point :P