Naval battles can be frustrating

[Tuidjy]

My four star admiral and his 600 sailors.
- 3 noobish gun holks (tier 3)
- 3 silver-gold holks (tier 2)
- 2 gold ladyas (tier 1)

Their one star admiral and not-quite 400 men.
- 5 war galleys (tier 2)
- 2 dhows (tier 1)

Crushing defeat.

One gun holk and one ladya lost.

How the Hell? More ships, a lot more men, way higher attack/defense.

[Tisroero]

... I can't help but feel there's a factor or something missing in alla this. There's no way you should have lost that.

[Ashina]

Originally posted by tisroero:

... I can't help but feel there's a factor or something missing in alla this. There's no way you should have lost that.

Difficulty M8.
And probably admiral experience.

[Tuidjy]

Difficulty was VH/VH, and my admiral had four stars to his one.

[Ashina]

Originally posted by Tuidjy:

Difficulty was VH/VH, and my admiral had four stars to his one.

Then its just comes down to luck.
You don't usually get crushing defeat, unless you're unlucky, and in very hard difficulty the enemy gets like a ton of buff when auto resolving.

[AcimasiZ]

Same event happen to me. %95 chance of assassination but my assassins death while on mission. i reloaded and tried 3 times and all the time he dead from %95 chance. my campaign diff is hard but looks funny to me.

[Devil Doug]

@Tuidjy - By now you might not remember, but if you do, I'd be curious to learn what the "veteran" status of each ship was.

[Tuidjy]

Originally posted by Devil Doug:

@Tuidjy - By now you might not remember, but if you do, I'd be curious to learn what the "veteran" status of each ship was.

I thought I had listed them in the original post - the gun holks were brand new, but the ladyas were triple gold and the holks were at least silver, with some gold.

The enemy had some bronze.

[Inardesco]

Its called RNG and when there is RNG it'll ♥♥♥♥ you over

[Ashina]

I mean VH is meant for the players to fight it manually.
But you can't fight naval battle manually.

[Tuidjy]

Originally posted by Ashina:

I mean VH is meant for the players to fight it manually.
But you can't fight naval battle manually.

Yeah.

In Empire, Shogun 2, etc. you can take a single ship against fleets, and win.

In Medieval 2, you can lose when the odds are 5:3 or even 2:1 in your favor.

[Ashina]

Naval battles in total war game are mostly just big horse archers firing at each other, especially in shogun 2, don't even think of boarding, you lose too much men, especially archers because they're always outside while your melee is inside the ship.

[mgp37m]

Yes they can

[Devil Doug]

@Tuidjy -

Since you brought this subject up it's changed my naval strategy somewhat. Recognizing that blockading ports doesn't shut down enemy ship production (I'm not sure why), and that enemy ports can produce three ships at a time, I've since adopted the strategy of maneuvering no less than four Gun Holks to any location.

Four seems to allow me to have numerical superiority for at least one turn, and if I'm not allowed to attack, then at least I'm afforded a chance to reinforce when other units are near.

I've still been using my early made cogs for diplomatic transportation. Not using regular Holks at all, as they are too expensive for diplomatic missions, yet to underpowered for naval conflict.

Yet, I'm thinking of just getting rid of the Cogs and building more Gun Holks for even for away diplomatic missions as well. Seeings how my attrition rate is better with a team of at least four Gun Holks, maybe I lose one, then the other three can be reinforced with another Gun Holk even if it is currently on a diplomatic mission.

I'm not sure what ladyas are, perhaps specific to a certain faction? Anyways, thought maybe it would be beneficial to trade notes with you.

[Tuidjy]

Since you brought this subject up it's changed my naval strategy somewhat. Recognizing that blockading ports doesn't shut down enemy ship production (I'm not sure why), and that enemy ports can produce three ships at a time, I've since adopted the strategy of maneuvering no less than four Gun Holks to any location.

I also noticed that blockading from the water does not work. I keep meaning to try blockading from the land, i.e. moving some cavalry on top of the enemy harbor, and see what happens, but I have yet to do it for long enough to be sure.

In any case. my approach after a couple of defeats like the one above is a bit different from yours. I do not actually blockade the port, just make it so that the enemy cannot leave the port without crossing my zone of control. One or two fleet, which support each other, and can defeat three ships is usually enough to lead the A.I. into a trap:

On its turn, the A.I. moves out of the harbor, but stays right next to it, vulnerable to attack. If new enemy ships have been built, I bring reinforcements, like you. The difference is that the enemy does not get to build up forces, safe in the harbor.

It mostly works.

Originally posted by Devil Doug:

I'm not sure what ladyas are, perhaps specific to a certain faction?

The ladya (ладия in Church Slavonic, lad'ya in Medieval 2, ладья in Russian) are the Russian tier 1 boats. An evolution of the longship, with even higher offense and no defense to speak of. At gold chevrons, their attack is higher than a holk's defense, so when they win, they tend to kill off the losers. When they lose they die in droves. At least, it's so before gunpowder.

I also keep them for channel hopping and straight blockading until the late game. In my current game, I have ladii guarding the Bosphorus and Gibraltar, as well as ferrying troops between the Greek Islands and the Levant.

I have to say, I had an easier time on water before gunpowder. My gun holks are absolutely no match for lanternas in similar numbers. Now I do not fight unless I have more than a 2:1 advantage... Fortunately, anyone holding ports at this point does at my sufferance.

[Devil Doug]

I've also tried blockading enemy ports by parking land forces on them using the zone of control logic. It seems to work, because I haven't seen any enemy (Holy Roman Empire) ships being built in these ports when I do it. Trouble is, it's hard to maintain since the ports in this game are so close to their respective cities where they can easily build more land forces, and I can not. Perhaps it's a tactic best used to slow down enemy ship building, thus allowing my/your naval forces to get back to port and recuperate. I'm still not certain however, and would like to continue this topic with you.

Setting a trap just outside of the enemy port sounds like a good idea. Yes, I've had some experience with that, but it wasn't my actual intention at the time, I just got a bit lucky is all. Now I'm wondering if both strategies should be incorporated together when possible...??? Perhaps I will try blockading with the four Gun Holks mentioned to shut down their trade, but also back up that force with two more Gun Holks just behind them. That just might get my navy to Silver Chevron Status a little quicker. I'm playing England, so it shouldn't be hard for me to do, and I'll let you know how it works out.

You may be a little ahead of me, as I've only just discovered gun powder, and haven't built any of those upgrades yet. Do ships upgrade to actual cannon then?