Halberd Militia, is it just me or utterly dreadful?

[Glitshy]

Sure, they are cheap. But c'mon, less solders per unit than the only 10 G more expensive spear militia, same attack, no shield (6 defence gone) and lower anti cavalry bonus. The only thing they have going for them is the armour piercing aspect.
The main porblem however seems to be that the armour improvements give only +1 armour per rank, despite the description ("can be upgraded substantially") and visuals (plate armour when fully upgraded) suggest it would be more than for other units.
Anyone feels the same?

[Inardesco]

Halberds don't have formation like the pikes do and no, they're not meant to be a frontline unit but are superb as a flanking unit.

If you get rid of the 2handed bug then Halberds are a very tough unit to take out, with the 2handed bug, they're well...pretty much bugged like all other 2handed units.

So before saying that Halberds suck, play against them when their 2handed bug is fixed and you'll see how devestating they can be when used correctly.

[Gekkibi]

Originally posted by Inardesco:

Halberds don't have formation like the pikes do and no, they're not meant to be a frontline unit but are superb as a flanking unit.

If you get rid of the 2handed bug then Halberds are a very tough unit to take out, with the 2handed bug, they're well...pretty much bugged like all other 2handed units.

So before saying that Halberds suck, play against them when their 2handed bug is fixed and you'll see how devestating they can be when used correctly.

Didn't Kingdoms fix 2-handed animation problem?

[Inardesco]

The bug is fixed within the Kingdoms campaigns however, the Grand Campaign isn't fixed yet. There's a small fix around, the retrofit mod, that implements all the Kingdoms features into the grand campaign; 2handed bug fix, boiling oil most notably.

[Gekkibi]

Originally posted by Inardesco:

The bug is fixed within the Kingdoms campaigns however, the Grand Campaign isn't fixed yet. There's a small fix around, the retrofit mod, that implements all the Kingdoms features into the grand campaign; 2handed bug fix, boiling oil most notably.

Ah, all this time (a decade, that is) I've thought that the bug fix was applied to the grand campaign as well. This tells how much I play an unmodded version of the game (well, at least the normal campaign, I've played unmodded kingdoms campaigns).

[Inardesco]

I'm not sure if you've played any mods for Kingdoms but if you have played some mods, then you know that Halberd units are difficult to deal with. They can chew through heavily armoured forces and hold their ground superbly. That's why their stats "s*ck", because they can do that with such low attack and defence.

[Gekkibi]

Originally posted by Inardesco:

I'm not sure if you've played any mods for Kingdoms but if you have played some mods, then you know that Halberd units are difficult to deal with. They can chew through heavily armoured forces and hold their ground superbly. That's why their stats "s*ck", because they can do that with such low attack and defence.

Yes, I know that it's misleading to compare stats between different types of units. For example the pole animation is so ferocious that it can stun-lock an enemy unit. Combine this with a high attack value and you have a weapon of mass destruction in your hand.

[Glitshy]

After playing around in custom scenario, my fear got confirmed. There are many instances of similar units which are cheaper, earlyier and more powerful than late game units. For example HRE Imperial unmounted knights get utterly slaughtered by feudal knights, the armour piercing doesn't nearly make up for the lower damage and way lower defence. Unmounted Gothic knights lose even higher to the feudals, which is hilarous, though that may be partially due to the two handed bug (which reduced the attack frequency as I understand it?).
Well, halbardiers aren't that much worse anyways, but late HRE heavy infantry is insanely weak.

[Inardesco]

Originally posted by Glitshy:

Unmounted Gothic knights lose even higher to the feudals, which is hilarous, though that may be partially due to the two handed bug
Well, halbardiers aren't that much worse anyways, but late HRE heavy infantry is insanely weak.

It may not be partially due to the 2handed bug. It is due to the 2handed bug. When I played the game a loooooooong time ago (retail) I had send a full newly recruited elite HRE army towards the Aztecs, pumped full of 2handed units like the Forlorn Hope and Zweihander. Needless to say, it got obliterated by the Aztecs due to the 2handed bug.

The bug is explained as followed;

Units with the "2H Axe" animation, which includes bill and pollaxe users, cannot attack cavalry in a standing melee.

Furthermore their attack animation is very slow, which forces them to parry incessantly over the course of a battle.

Spearwall polearm, Eastern halberd and 2H sword units do not have this problem.
http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?83642-What-exactly-is-this-two-handed-bug

[Inardesco]

Also not sure what tests you have done, thus far I've tested Egyptian Halberd Militia against Venetian Pike Militia; Halberds won. Egyptian Halberds vs French Sergeant Spearman; Halberds won.

Will continue to do some more tests against some more elite infantry and will edit the post to share the results.

[Glitshy]

Originally posted by Inardesco:

Spearwall polearm, Eastern halberd and 2H sword units do not have this problem.
http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?83642-What-exactly-is-this-two-handed-bug

[/quote]

But wouldn't that mean that zweihanders etc. should work? Or do they use the 2H Axe animation despite using swords? And it definitely isn't only the 2handed bug, as unmounted gothics have 14 defense compared to 21 of the fuedals, so the 14 damage and 6 charge (the cahrge works properly, though afterwards they fail) compared to the 13 and 3. The fact that chainmail and greathelm of the feudals is supposed to be 8 armour value and gothic plate armour, which is roughly 5 centuries more modern, is resembled by 10 armour, is just a gigantic joke.

Originally posted by Inardesco:

Egyptian Halberds vs French Sergeant Spearman; Halberds won.

Spearmen are indeed inferior in infantry vs infantry battles, as spears are ineffective against infantry. Not sure about the pike thing, maybe the pike just got lucky/unlucky in oune of our tests?
I have to say that I am pleasantly surprised with the community of this game, usally "older" games have a bunch of elitist players which refuse to hold a constructive discussion in any way.

[Gekkibi]

Originally posted by Glitshy:

I have to say that I am pleasantly surprised with the community of this game, usally "older" games have a bunch of elitist players which refuse to hold a constructive discussion in any way.

Oh, we have some grumpy oldfarts here. *whistles while looking at the ceiling* ;)

[Inardesco]

All halberd militia that I use will be Egyptian; 7 Attack, 8 Defence, 3 Charge; no experience, no weapon/armour upgrade; 510 Florins; Map Arsuf, difficulty Very Hard.

Egyptian Halberds vs Dismounted Feudal knights (Venice); Feudal Knights lost half unit but won
Halberds vs Dismounted Conquistadores (Portugal); Conquistadores won with less than 20 casualties
Halberds vs Venetian Heavy Infantry; Heavy Infantry won with 20ish casualties
Halberds vs Heavy Bill Militia (England); Close victory for Halberds, charge was heavily in favour of Bill militia but victory due to loss of general.
Halberds vs Sicilian Halberd Militia; Egyptian Halberds won with less then 20 casualties
Halberds vs Obudshaer (Denmark; Halberds won with around 50 casualties
Halberds vs Saracen Spearman (Turks); Halberds won with half forces remaining
Halberds vs Tercio Pikemen (Spain); Close victory for Halberds
Halberds vs Swiss Guard (Papal States); Swiss Guard didn't charge thus resulting in their loss
Halberds vs Dismounted Noble Knights (France); Charge heavily in favour of Noble Knights, melee was more even. Noble Knights won.
Halberds vs Zweihander (Holy Roman Empire); Zweihander won with charge heavily in their favour
Halberds vs Urban Militia (Moors); Charge and melee in favour of Urban Milita, they won with half a unit left
And last test I'm going to do now;
Halberds vs Papal Guard (Papal States); Papal States won with around 30 casualties.


So, feel free to draw your conclusions from this.

[Glitshy]

Originally posted by Inardesco:

All halberd militia that I use will be Egyptian; 7 Attack, 8 Defence, 3 Charge; no experience, no weapon/armour upgrade; 510 Florins; Map Arsuf, difficulty Very Hard.

Egyptian Halberds vs Dismounted Feudal knights (Venice); Feudal Knights lost half unit but won
Halberds vs Dismounted Conquistadores (Portugal); Conquistadores won with less than 20 casualties
Halberds vs Venetian Heavy Infantry; Heavy Infantry won with 20ish casualties
Halberds vs Heavy Bill Militia (England); Close victory for Halberds, charge was heavily in favour of Bill militia but victory due to loss of general.
Halberds vs Sicilian Halberd Militia; Egyptian Halberds won with less then 20 casualties
Halberds vs Obudshaer (Denmark; Halberds won with around 50 casualties
Halberds vs Saracen Spearman (Turks); Halberds won with half forces remaining
Halberds vs Tercio Pikemen (Spain); Close victory for Halberds
Halberds vs Swiss Guard (Papal States); Swiss Guard didn't charge thus resulting in their loss
Halberds vs Dismounted Noble Knights (France); Charge heavily in favour of Noble Knights, melee was more even. Noble Knights won.
Halberds vs Zweihander (Holy Roman Empire); Zweihander won with charge heavily in their favour
Halberds vs Urban Militia (Moors); Charge and melee in favour of Urban Milita, they won with half a unit left
And last test I'm going to do now;
Halberds vs Papal Guard (Papal States); Papal States won with around 30 casualties.


So, feel free to draw your conclusions from this.

I'm talking about normal halbered militia, which have 5 attack, 0 defence and 2 charge. The european ones. There's quite a difference.

[Inardesco]

There is indeed, since they got obliterated by the Egyptian Halberd Militia. But, they do have 1 defence.

[Glitshy]

Originally posted by Inardesco:

But, they do have 1 defence.

Yes, my bad, only remembered they have 0 armour but forgot they got 1 defensive skill.