Useless archers?

[Thomas]

Ok MAYBE I am wrong, but my archers seem to do no damage (compared to the only other pre gunpowder total war I've played which was Shogun 2) I had 6 companies of heavy crossbowmen vs an opposing force of medium infantry. I expected to kill of at least a company or two before they got to me, but my crossbowmen killed maybe 10 infantry before they got to me. The same thing happened when I used highland archers. Is this normal? Or did I do something wrong? Because I would've thought that I would be able to kill quite a few infantry before they could get to me.

[Tacticus Winter]

Upgraded armor more than likely, or accuracy. It depends really. Need more info. Did you run with your archers before they shot? Fatigue, I believe, affects accuracy.

[Thomas]

Neither side was upgraded, my archers were standing still and the enemy was charging at me. On a flat desert plain.

[Neron]

If enemy squad have only 1 unnit alive-this one man became totaly invulnerable for any ranged attacks!!!

[Thomas]

Originally posted by Neron:

If enemy squad have only 1 unnit alive-this one man became totaly invulnerable for any ranged attacks!!!

No I mean they had full health squads and I was only killing like 1 or 2 people with a full salvo.

[Jojojay]

Originally posted by Burton Guster:

Originally posted by Neron:

If enemy squad have only 1 unnit alive-this one man became totaly invulnerable for any ranged attacks!!!

No I mean they had full health squads and I was only killing like 1 or 2 people with a full salvo.

if you are using peasant crosbowmen, they are EXTREMELY innacurate. they will only hit the enemy with any accuracy when inside of the skirmish range. the main use of peasant archers and crosbowmen is to make it so that you have more ranged firepower than a army that has NO missiles. if you have more missle firepower, then the other army will attack you (even if you where the one who engaged the battle in the campaign map), and your infantry and cavalry will have the bonus of more cohesive lines and less fatigue, as well as the fact that even a small amount of casualties can somewhat disrupt the formation of an enemy unit and make it susciptable to a last second counter-charge.(last second counter charge: enemy charges at you: have your infantry charge a few seconds before the enemy infantry crashes into your infantry. your infantry will still be in tight formation, enemy will not, especcially if they recieved archer fire during the charfe)

peasant crosbowmen and archers can be usefull if you disable skirmish mode and then move them nearly point blank on the side of an infantry unit that is already engaged. they will then be firing at point blank, and will get a decent amount of kills. note that this will make them extremely vulnerable to enemy cavalry, and the enemy will send cavalry to attack them. this is okay as they are cheap anyway. with the enemy cavalry distracted, you can use your cavalry to charge into the sides and backs of engaged infantry, this will often cause the infantry to rout. after the infantry routs, your cavalry will chase it, and have the infantry unit that was fighting that infantry unit move on to double team an enemy unit of infantry.

if you have ranged units that also have high melee, such as some english archers, scottish archers, or itallian crosbow millitia, it is often best to disable skirmish and seed them throughout your infantry line(s). often double-teaming the enemy is more valuable then the archer support they would provide through the fight (especially when factoring in friendly fire)

bows and ESPACIALLY crosbows are more effective when firing straight forward and less effective when firing in a parabolic arc. they will fire in a parabolic arc if there is a unit between them and their target (i.e if you put them behind a an infantry line). javilines seem to have a pretty small parabolic fire penalty, so they work really well behind a line of infantry, as the close range cancels out the penalties.

[Thomas]

ah, thank you for the information

[Jojojay]

Originally posted by Burton Guster:

ah, thank you for the information

your welcome. enjoy the game.

[Thomas]

I think I will try the turks, they seem to have good harrass horse archers, I can use them to whittle the enemy down while distracting them with cheap infantry.

[Jojojay]

Originally posted by Burton Guster:

I think I will try the turks, they seem to have good harrass horse archers, I can use them to whittle the enemy down while distracting them with cheap infantry.

yes. horse archers are good for flanking and losing the parabolic penalty. note you can alt click to order a ranged unit to enter a melee. this is not very usefull for horse archers, but it can be used to order them to chase and melee routers, which is more effective than shooting routers.

sicily is also fun to play as. they have muslim archers who are good in melee as well as italian crosbow militia and spear militia, both of whom are pretty good.

[Darth Cannabis]

I am disapointed. With all the talk of archers that are good in melee, you never mention the 2 I find truly best.

Denmark's Norse archers have as much melee damage as later Norse Swordsmen, and compared to every other archer of comparable tier, they are clear strongest in melee, thou they are only second rate on actual ranged.

Later many have good archers that are also good in melee, but one should take special note of Russia's dismounted Dvor. They are heavily armored, to the point where they actual use heavy infantry voice lines.

So those are 2 that need special note as melee archers. Norse archers are strong enough, where they can double as all your light infantry all game. Dismounted Dvor, can double as an extra line of heavy inf.

If your into ranged cavalry and cheap infantry, Russia is another you should look at. A little heavier armored on the range cavalry part than turks, but less effective archers earlier.

[FIRE&ASHES]

in anny total war game, ranged units are only good shooting at stationary troops,and defending city's (early game)
now it also depends on the enemy armor rating,, and where you shoot the enemy
from the front, even a medium unit wil take far les damage then when its being shot from the rear or side (the one without shield),, and vs low armor point cavalry
so, shooting a moving target with armor and shields walking towards your archers wil take far less damage

later on you wil get better ranged units, but melee units wil also get better armor, always take out the weak units first !!! (armor),, the heavy units you can run away from and tire them out,then your archers have way more change to shoot the enemy from differnd angels (rear),

when defending bridges, place heavy units to block the bridge, place your ranged units at your left side, so they can shoot at the enemy on the bridge to there right side (no shield arm)
in plain battles, win the cav, fight first, get in melee combat, if you have ranged units left over,flank the engaged enemy and pepper them from the rear or side's
just dont stand still in line formation and let enemy charge you, use tactics !!!

just play some random battles, and test what works wel for you,, you can do amezing things and win great victory's when played your archer tactics wel :))

[Inardesco]

Originally posted by jojojay.martin:

if you are using peasant crosbowmen, they are EXTREMELY innacurate. they will only hit the enemy with any accuracy when inside of the skirmish range. .

The Peasant Crossbowmen from the Moors are one of the top 10 archer units in the game. 12 missile attack armour piercing.

Originally posted by Darth Cannabis:

I am disapointed. With all the talk of archers that are good in melee, you never mention the 2 I find truly best.

Byzantine Guard Archers and Venetian Heavy Archers both outperform the Norse Achers and the Dismounted Dvor.

[Darth Cannabis]

Originally posted by Inardesco:

Originally posted by jojojay.martin:

if you are using peasant crosbowmen, they are EXTREMELY innacurate. they will only hit the enemy with any accuracy when inside of the skirmish range. .

The Peasant Crossbowmen from the Moors are one of the top 10 archer units in the game. 12 missile attack armour piercing.

Originally posted by Darth Cannabis:

I am disapointed. With all the talk of archers that are good in melee, you never mention the 2 I find truly best.

Byzantine Guard Archers and Venetian Heavy Archers both outperform the Norse Achers and the Dismounted Dvor.

And both are not available to way the hell later than the norse archer. To compare to same tier and early availability, you would have to compare them to trez archers in the byzantine case. Keep in mind, the early availabilty of norse archers, and how strong thier melee is for a low tier inexpensive unit that only needs a 2nd level range to produce. You don't need a fortress or 3rd + tier unlocks and can afford more groups of them for same price.

Now in the case of dvor archer I agree, the others outperform, but the sheer armor of the dvor is of special note.

Also keep in mind, my opinion of them as best, was entirely in the melee context of them (and also how well they fill that additional role in thier perspective armies) Norse archers, can be used entirely in place of viking raiders. Your not going to use a Venetian Archer, in place of your Venetian heavy infantry are you? As actual archers, yeah I would take a Byazntine Guard or a Ottoman Infantry any day.

[Inardesco]

Well, while Norse Archers might have the edge over Trebizond archers in melee, the Trebizond Archers will win the skirmish due to their 9 missile damage. They're even late-game a very solid archer unit even though they miss the melee capabilities that the Byzantine Guard Archers do have.

As for the Venetian Heavy Archers in melee, not my first pick but I also won't worry about them should they get into melee, their armour rating is solid (same as Venetian Heavy Infantry, though these have higher defence skill + shields). I think, Dismounted Dvor have a 14 armour rating? That's fairly decent and they do fulfill the role of versatile archer for the Russians, considering that they lack the Feudal Knights that most European nations get.

[Jojojay]

another point: if the enemy were in a thin line, long line, then your parabolic crosbow fire would be even less effective. in a horizantilly short, but thick formation, a parabolic bolt that is aimed at the center but lands a few meters back will probably still hit an enemy. if the line is only 3 soldiers thick however, a parabolic bolt that lands a few meters back will miss. couple this with the fact that they are moving towards you will mean that the crosbowmen have a tiny chance of hitting. it takes about 4 seconds for the parabolic bolt to reach its target, but by then the enemy would have moved way out of the way. your crosbow men will try to aim a little in front of the enemy, but they only have about a 2 meter deep target, becouse the men are standing only 3 soldiers deep. is this what happened? weather will also affect it. at night or inside of fog, your archers and crosbowmen have less range and will get less time to shoot before the enemy gets to them.