"Winning first" is driving me mad

[Turkusowy Sen]

I want to play full "good" campaign with only chivalrous characters and it gets impossible because all the time with my generals I get this ♥♥♥♥♥♥ +1 dread trait. And it also blocks "fair in battle" trait. I do everything to be as honourable as possible but it seems to not work...tried multiple start game sieges as different factions and it is always the same
-do not kill to many people and do not chase routing units. Well, its hard to do if they just run to the main plaza, then regroup and i have to butcher them all.
-do not engage general too much - i tried using him not at all - still got the trait
-do not attack with overwhelming odds - i tried attacking with 1:1 or even 1:2 and still it does nothing

I even tried ridiculous "knightly" "tactics" like using no archers at all or charging stupidly with all forces at once (do i have to be stupid to be chivalrous?) and STILL i havent got fair fighter. What the hell. I tried like 10 times and only 1 time i managed to get NO trait (no winning first and no fair fighter) which is not satisfying at all. Help someone, what i am supposed to do cus i dont know. Do i have to charge suicidal attack like 30 bodyguards on 200 people to be fair fighter or what?

[Şeyma]

just go full dread lol

[Gunther von Rittersburg]

Occupying settlements is my best tip. Dont sack or exterminate. Successful Crusades also helps, I think.

Why do they all have to be chivalrous? Just for roleplaying?

As far as I know, its not possible to be completely perfectly chilvarous. Some guys are rougher, some situations become ugly and alot of enemies must die.

[Shadow of the SPQR]

Using the occupy option on settlements can help boost the friendly stats up, as, I believe, does low taxes. Part of it can be purely random.

I guess you can also use the ~ button and eliminate bad traits :p

Crusades (yes, I know the irony here) can boost your chivalry.

Yes, being stupid is often a qualifier for being chivalrous

[Siddha]

I found that even if I release prisoners I can still get dread - so I dont know what to make of that

[Turkusowy Sen]

Yeah I know about occupying settlements and releasing prisoners but im talking about "battle dread" stat which gets involved when you battle someone. Your behaviour in battle can give you battle chivalry and battle dread, which sadly cant be reversed, so when you get that stupid winning first trait you are over and can only become more and more douchebag butchering enemies for fun. And thats stupid cus i get it every time. Literally every time, no matter what I do. Maybe you get fair fighter if you play defensive, but how im supposed to play defensive when I siege a city. Im not gonna wait forever to get attacked by someone, too.

[Dashurohem]

Just target the character and click ` then write "remove_trait this (trait here)" and it removes it.

I always remove the Arse, Drink, Introvert and StrickenSilly traits because those annoy me and seem to randomly appear. I wish there were a mod to remove all of the negative traits from the game because I think they just annoying more than anything else.

[Inardesco]

Would you rather lose first rather than winning first?

[Armchair Civilian]

i love dread; if i want a general to avoid gaining nicety from occupying or dread from executing, i leave him out of that battle, and that way i also occasionally spawn a general with the desired traits :)
But unless you're playing SS, stuff chivalry; if you ARE playing SS, then buildings are a better route to chivalry than battlefield actions ;)

[Siddha]

Not everyone wants to play the game as a psychopathic blitzkrieger...

Anyhow Kruk have a read of this I copied from a guide to traits on Game FAQs

Winning First (BattleDread 1)- +1 Dread, gained after 1 point of BattleDread
Cruel and Cunning (BattleDread 2)- +2 Dread, upgrade after 3 points of
BattleDread
Merciless Mauler (BattleDread 3)- +3 Dread, upgrade after 6 points of
BattleDread
Field Tyrant (BattleDread 4)- +4 Dread, +1 Authority, epithet "the Mauler",
upgrade after 10 points of BattleDread
Warlord of Terror (BattleDread 5)- +5 Dread, +2 Authority, epithet "the Lord
of Terror", upgrade after 15 points of BattleDread

Here comes complicated triggers. The way BattleChivalry and BattleDread work
is that they are not antitraits, but instead, are handled by having each
trigger for one check to make sure there are no points of the other. This
means that sometimes the game favors one or the other, depending on which
conditions it checks first.

A general offered for adoption or lesser adoption gains a point of
BattleDread with 50% probability if he does not have any levels of
BattleChivalry. Note that this is called after the trigger to gain
BattleChivalry on adoption, so it is more likely that he gets BattleChivalry
than BattleDread on adoption. If he gains this point, he gains 2 more points
with 33% probability.
If a general with no levels of BattleChivalry kills eight or more enemies in
a battle, he gains a point of BattleDread with 50% probability. If a general
loses a battle in which the general did not kill any of the enemy, and the
total number of enemy killed is less than 10%, he loses a point of
BattleDread. If a general routs in battle and kills less than 8 enemies, and
the total number of enemy killed is less than 33%, he loses 2 points of
BattleDread. If a general routs in a battle with odds greater than .75,
kills less than 8 enemies, and his army kills less than or equal to 66% but
greater than or equal to 33% of the enemy, he loses a point of BattleDread.
If a general with no levels of BattleChivalry attacks an enemy and kills more
than 50% of them in a battle with odds greater than 1.5 he gains a point of
BattleDread. If a general with no levels in BattleChivalry wins a normal
battle in which he hit at least one enemy, the battle success was crushing or
greater, the odds less than .95, and he killed more than 70% of the enemy, he
gains 2 points of BattleDread. If a general with no levels in BattleChivalry
wins a battle with a success rating of average or greater, the odds were less
than .95, he did not fight in the combat, and killed less than 20% of the
enemy, he loses a point of BattleDread.


Fair Fighter (BattleChivalry 1)- +1 Chivalry, gained after 1 point of
BattleChivalry
Noble in Battle (BattleChivalry 2)- +2 Chivalry, upgrade after 3 points of
BattleChivalry
Bastion of Chivalry (BattleChivalry 3)- +3 Chivalry, upgrade after 6 points
of BattleChivalry
Champion of Honor (BattleChivalry 4)- +4 Chivalry, +1 Authority, epithet "the
Chivalrous", upgrade after 10 points of BattleChivalry
Saint of Battle (BattleChivalry 5)- +5 Chivalry, +2 Authority, epithet "the
Champion", upgrade after 15 points of BattleChivalry

The way BattleChivalry and BattleDread work is that they are not antitraits,
but instead, are handled by having each trigger for one check to make sure
there are no points of the other. This means that sometimes the game favors
one or the other, depending on which conditions it checks first.

A general offered for adoption, lesser adoption or marriage gains a point of
BattleChivalry with 50% probability. If a general offered for adoption or
lesser adoption gains this point, he gains two more points with 33%
probability. Note that these options come before the triggers for gaining
BattleDread on adoption or marriage, so it is far more likely a general will
start with BattleChivalry.

If a general with no levels of BattleDread kills eight or more enemies in a
battle, he gains a point of BattleChivalry.
Note that this trigger comes -after- the similar trigger for BattleDread, so
it is far more likely a combative general will gain points of BattleDread
unless you somehow acquire BattleChivalry otherwise.

If a general loses a battle in which the general did not kill any of the
enemy, and the total number of enemy killed is less than 10%, he loses a
point of BattleChivalry. If a general routs in battle and kills less than 8
enemies, and the total number of enemy killed is less than 33%, he loses 2
points of BattleChivalry. If a general routs in a battle with odds greater
than .75, kills less than 8 enemies, and his army kills less than or equal to
66% but greater than or equal to 33% of the enemy, he loses a point of
BattleChivalry. If a general wins a battle with odds less than .8 in which
he was not the attacker, he has no levels of BattleDread and he personally
fought in combat, he gains a point of BattleChivalry. If a general wins any
battle with odds less than or equal to .5, he personally fought in combat,
and he does not have any levels in BattleDread, he gains a point of
BattleChivalry with 66% probability. If a Catholic or Orthodox general with
no levels of BattleDread attacks an Islamic general, he gains a point of
BattleChivalry with 33% probability. If an Islamic general with no levels of
BattleDread attacks a Catholic general, he gains a point of BattleChivalry
with 66% probability. If a general with no levels of BattleDread wins a
battle with success rating of average or better, kills less than 20% of the
enemy, and the battle odds were less than .95, he gains a point of
BattleChivalry with 33% probability.
---
Mean Leader (StrategyDread 1)- +1 Dread, gained after 1 point of
StrategyDread
Cruel Leader (StrategyDread 2)- +2 Dread, upgrade after 2 points of
StrategyDread
Merciless Leader (StrategyDread 3)- +3 Dread, +1 Authority, upgrade after 4
points of StrategyDread
Malevolent Leader (StrategyDread 4)- +4 Dread, +2 Authority, epithet "the
Malevolent", upgrade after 8 points of StrategyDread
Tyranical Leader (StrategyDread 5)- +5 Dread, +3 Authority, epithet "the
Tyrant", upgrade after 16 points of StrategyDread

[Turkusowy Sen]

Originally posted by Siddha:

Not everyone wants to play the game as a psychopathic blitzkrieger...

Anyhow Kruk have a read of this I copied from a guide to traits on Game FAQs

Winning First (BattleDread 1)- +1 Dread, gained after 1 point of BattleDread
Cruel and Cunning (BattleDread 2)- +2 Dread, upgrade after 3 points of
BattleDread
Merciless Mauler (BattleDread 3)- +3 Dread, upgrade after 6 points of
BattleDread
Field Tyrant (BattleDread 4)- +4 Dread, +1 Authority, epithet "the Mauler",
upgrade after 10 points of BattleDread
Warlord of Terror (BattleDread 5)- +5 Dread, +2 Authority, epithet "the Lord
of Terror", upgrade after 15 points of BattleDread

Here comes complicated triggers. The way BattleChivalry and BattleDread work
is that they are not antitraits, but instead, are handled by having each
trigger for one check to make sure there are no points of the other. This
means that sometimes the game favors one or the other, depending on which
conditions it checks first.

A general offered for adoption or lesser adoption gains a point of
BattleDread with 50% probability if he does not have any levels of
BattleChivalry. Note that this is called after the trigger to gain
BattleChivalry on adoption, so it is more likely that he gets BattleChivalry
than BattleDread on adoption. If he gains this point, he gains 2 more points
with 33% probability.
If a general with no levels of BattleChivalry kills eight or more enemies in
a battle, he gains a point of BattleDread with 50% probability. If a general
loses a battle in which the general did not kill any of the enemy, and the
total number of enemy killed is less than 10%, he loses a point of
BattleDread. If a general routs in battle and kills less than 8 enemies, and
the total number of enemy killed is less than 33%, he loses 2 points of
BattleDread. If a general routs in a battle with odds greater than .75,
kills less than 8 enemies, and his army kills less than or equal to 66% but
greater than or equal to 33% of the enemy, he loses a point of BattleDread.
If a general with no levels of BattleChivalry attacks an enemy and kills more
than 50% of them in a battle with odds greater than 1.5 he gains a point of
BattleDread. If a general with no levels in BattleChivalry wins a normal
battle in which he hit at least one enemy, the battle success was crushing or
greater, the odds less than .95, and he killed more than 70% of the enemy, he
gains 2 points of BattleDread. If a general with no levels in BattleChivalry
wins a battle with a success rating of average or greater, the odds were less
than .95, he did not fight in the combat, and killed less than 20% of the
enemy, he loses a point of BattleDread.


Fair Fighter (BattleChivalry 1)- +1 Chivalry, gained after 1 point of
BattleChivalry
Noble in Battle (BattleChivalry 2)- +2 Chivalry, upgrade after 3 points of
BattleChivalry
Bastion of Chivalry (BattleChivalry 3)- +3 Chivalry, upgrade after 6 points
of BattleChivalry
Champion of Honor (BattleChivalry 4)- +4 Chivalry, +1 Authority, epithet "the
Chivalrous", upgrade after 10 points of BattleChivalry
Saint of Battle (BattleChivalry 5)- +5 Chivalry, +2 Authority, epithet "the
Champion", upgrade after 15 points of BattleChivalry

The way BattleChivalry and BattleDread work is that they are not antitraits,
but instead, are handled by having each trigger for one check to make sure
there are no points of the other. This means that sometimes the game favors
one or the other, depending on which conditions it checks first.

A general offered for adoption, lesser adoption or marriage gains a point of
BattleChivalry with 50% probability. If a general offered for adoption or
lesser adoption gains this point, he gains two more points with 33%
probability. Note that these options come before the triggers for gaining
BattleDread on adoption or marriage, so it is far more likely a general will
start with BattleChivalry.

If a general with no levels of BattleDread kills eight or more enemies in a
battle, he gains a point of BattleChivalry.
Note that this trigger comes -after- the similar trigger for BattleDread, so
it is far more likely a combative general will gain points of BattleDread
unless you somehow acquire BattleChivalry otherwise.

If a general loses a battle in which the general did not kill any of the
enemy, and the total number of enemy killed is less than 10%, he loses a
point of BattleChivalry. If a general routs in battle and kills less than 8
enemies, and the total number of enemy killed is less than 33%, he loses 2
points of BattleChivalry. If a general routs in a battle with odds greater
than .75, kills less than 8 enemies, and his army kills less than or equal to
66% but greater than or equal to 33% of the enemy, he loses a point of
BattleChivalry. If a general wins a battle with odds less than .8 in which
he was not the attacker, he has no levels of BattleDread and he personally
fought in combat, he gains a point of BattleChivalry. If a general wins any
battle with odds less than or equal to .5, he personally fought in combat,
and he does not have any levels in BattleDread, he gains a point of
BattleChivalry with 66% probability. If a Catholic or Orthodox general with
no levels of BattleDread attacks an Islamic general, he gains a point of
BattleChivalry with 33% probability. If an Islamic general with no levels of
BattleDread attacks a Catholic general, he gains a point of BattleChivalry
with 66% probability. If a general with no levels of BattleDread wins a
battle with success rating of average or better, kills less than 20% of the
enemy, and the battle odds were less than .95, he gains a point of
BattleChivalry with 33% probability.
---
Mean Leader (StrategyDread 1)- +1 Dread, gained after 1 point of
StrategyDread
Cruel Leader (StrategyDread 2)- +2 Dread, upgrade after 2 points of
StrategyDread
Merciless Leader (StrategyDread 3)- +3 Dread, +1 Authority, upgrade after 4
points of StrategyDread
Malevolent Leader (StrategyDread 4)- +4 Dread, +2 Authority, epithet "the
Malevolent", upgrade after 8 points of StrategyDread
Tyranical Leader (StrategyDread 5)- +5 Dread, +3 Authority, epithet "the
Tyrant", upgrade after 16 points of StrategyDread

Thanks, I found it today too. Pity, its quite stupid how they coded this trait. Seems like only chance to get it is to fight islamic factions (fine if you play portugal or spain) or fight outnumbered. And even if you fight outnumbered you are not assured that you get it I actually havent got it even once despite trying many times. And even if you get it somehow, you can get "bloodthirsty" or some berserker companions so it doesnt matter, you are dreadfull killing maniac anyway, pff.

[Siddha]

I found reading that stuff messed with my head; it doesn't make much sense to me
I mean what were they thinking?

The only thing I can suggest is to figure out how to alter the triggers yourself and come up with a more rational and predictable set of triggers....modding
I mean it should be possible to gain BattleChivalry on purpose by doing chivalrous things
or at least by not doing malevolent things
The traits system is not so great in how it was implemented
There is potential in such a system for role-playing and developing connections with your family members, but because the whole system is so under the hood and so unpredictable and even irrational I just ignore it and play in character despite it; glancing occasionally at the retinue and traits that accumulate. The only stats I care about in a general is command and morale and with governors I just put them in and out to see what impact they have on the bottom line. if its positive I leave them in; if not they become just another cavalry unit

[Turkusowy Sen]

Originally posted by Siddha:

I found reading that stuff messed with my head; it doesn't make much sense to me
I mean what were they thinking?

The only thing I can suggest is to figure out how to alter the triggers yourself and come up with a more rational and predictable set of triggers....modding
I mean it should be possible to gain BattleChivalry on purpose by doing chivalrous things
or at least by not doing malevolent things
The traits system is not so great in how it was implemented
There is potential in such a system for role-playing and developing connections with your family members, but because the whole system is so under the hood and so unpredictable and even irrational I just ignore it and play in character despite it; glancing occasionally at the retinue and traits that accumulate. The only stats I care about in a general is command and morale and with governors I just put them in and out to see what impact they have on the bottom line. if its positive I leave them in; if not they become just another cavalry unit

It is moddable for sure, i think you only have to edit some txt file. And yeah its quite irrational and counter-intuitive, everyone would think that charging on enemy and fighting bravely would lead to chivalrous traits, I guess game doesnt care about you "protecting your people and playing rational", it is instead considered being cruel bloodthirsty and unhonorable monster.

At least it is easier to get "fair fighter" when getting adopted children or by having honorable father. Still you have to get this trait for your initial characters anyway. And you can get those "fierce in battle" ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ too, negating your nice chivalry. Pretty sad but i guess you can still get good chivalry amounts anyway by releasing prisoner, occupying cities, going on crusades, building churches and keeping peasants happy. And children will also get chivalry from their fathers so its not that bad

[Gigantus]

fair fighter: don't kill routing enemies, don't execute prisoners

[the smoking mค็็็็็n]

all this stuff has been ramped up in SS so effects are much easier to see,especially if you understand the system somewhat
basically family trees have predisposition towards traits,then chars have predisposition towards fathers traits (don't need code to see this effect)
adoption can throw a spanner in the works,or fix it,depending on what your trying to do
i like to stick to a family tree for an entire game,but you start winding up with some really crazy inbred traits if you don't keep the line watered down with a bit of adoption and marriage outside the family
fair fighter should be easy to get and that starts a trend,but some family lines may have trouble even coming up with that trait,least more than some

[Gigantus]

And that's why I love M2TW - traits and ancillaries have been awfully dumbed down since then.