What can actually beat Dismounted Feudal Knights in toe to toe combat?

[Vectros]

I've seen all over the place topics about the best infantry in the game. The DFK are never mentioned...yet in every test I've ran, they either win consistently, or are effectively tied with every other unit. I've tried mainly the various Catholic units, such as Norse axemen. That was probably the biggest disappointment-armor piercing, a huge charge, etc.

The way I'm running my tests is to have 6 units in a custom battler per side; the NPC general usually sits back for most of the fight so I don't have to worry about morale drops, and I keep mine back too, only engaging him if the enemy does.

Enemy NPC always has 6 DFK. I test out various units-norse swordsmen, dismounted Norman knights, etc. After finding literally nothing that could beat them at a 1 to 1 ratio, I attempted mixed groups-for example, 3 DFK in the middle, but with a spread out formation to envelope all 5 enemy units, then 2 norse axemen on the flanks to...well, flank. Mixed results. I've had *slightly* better outcomes, but also much worse along with it.

So what am I missing? They're not even the most expensive unit, yet seem to beat literally anything I can throw at them-or at least tie. What's even the point of building Norse Axemen and the like if I can get a cheaper, better alternative?

[Ashur_Arbaces]

In the basegame?

-Dismounted Chivalric Knight (DCK) and it's reskins: Noble Swordsmen, Dismounted Polish Knight and Armoured Swordsmen (this last one has lower upkeep than the others).

-Dismounted Conquistadores

-Dismounted Christian Guard

-Hashashim (on a good day, they often lose cause the lack in numbers means their units gets ganged up upon)

-Venetian Heavy Infantry

-Dismounted Norman Knights and Dismounted Latinkon are essentially reskins of the DFK (the latter costs more though).

Set the custom battle on moderate difficulty, IIRC Med 2 makes the game harder the lame way (units get better morale, extra attack, etc. instead of becomming smarter and using better strategies and tactics) so hard gives innacurate results.

A lot 2 Handed units are not nearly as good as advertised because of the 2 handed bug (their attack animation is very slow and is easily interrupted) and a lot of sword and shield units have OP stats because they were balanced with the shield bug (shields initially didn't work) in mind but after it was fixed they didn't change their stats accordingly.

Norse Axemen are huge pieces of ♥♥♥♥ for their price and are one of the worst offenders in the game in that regard.

[Inardesco]

I agree with Ashur.

Do keep in mind that there are quite a lot of variables at stake. I've done a test with halberd militia (Middle Eastern) against various units and they rekt quite a lot of them despite the 2handed bug.

Venetian Heavy Infantry are probably the best if you can charge 'm in because they have AP damage which negates armour. Any unit that negates armour is a good against Dismounted Feudal Knights and any other knight for that matter.

Dismounted French/English Knights will also be able to easily clean up any dismounted feudal knight but it also depends on situation.

Dismounted Feudal Knights are a good unit to take walls with. Sturdy defence and good in offense. Will take them a while but they can chew through a defence given enough time. On a pitched battle they can form a solid centre line and if their flanks are protected they can hold a long time.

I don't like 'm on the flanks since then their weakness comes through. They melt in cavalry charges and their morale easily drops when they're focussed down by missiles or flanked by a secondary enemy unit.

Personally, they're not the unit I would prefer but they're a strong early era unit but easily replaceable by stronger, more durable and flexible units later on.

[Gamer Supreme]

DFK are a very solid infantry unit, and can easily swing above their weight. Of course they will fail to beat Dis Conquistadores and Dis Christian Guard, but that is because they are some of the best infantry, arguably the best but Venetian Heavy Infantry take the spot if they get the charge off.

But DFK are essentially a go to unit for most situations. Not so much Dismounted English/French Knights, as they suffer considerably from the 2h bug in Vanilla, and 2h units are devastating agaisnt cav and therefore more useful as anti-cav instead of anti-inf.

DFK are not the best unit by any means, but they can do just about anything better infantry can do, they just might have a bit rougher of a time doing so. Dismounted Norman Knights and Latinkon are just reskins, as said above. (Dismounted latinkon are slightly more expensive, though)

Personally, I love DFK, they're a quality unit that can hold off much better units long enough to allow you to turn the battle in your favor or smash lesser units to prevent a drawn out battle.

Also Norse Axemen are incompetent, there is little reason to get them, except for garrison or anti-cav, both jobs can be better fulfilled by the militia units of Denmark. They are one of the worst infantry units in the game, along with Janissary Heavy Infantry and Dismounted Gothic Knights.

Norse Swordsmen on the other hand are a decent infantry unit, about the same as Sword Militia of Spain/Portugal and the Byzantine infantry and maybe Urban Militia of the Moors. They aren't particularly good but they serve their purpose well, just don't put them against better units and expect them to hold.

[Inardesco]

The Moors have a suprisingly strong force for a Muslim faction when you compare them to the other Muslim factions.

Their Christian Guard and Urban Militia are on par with Christian counterparts and their Peasant Crossbows are devestating despite being peasants.

[Vectros]

So I've heard of this 2 handed bug, tried finding a fix but haven't found anything, was anything released to deal wit hit? Alternatively, has anyone come up with a way to balance them out through modding the descr_unit file? Say, raising the attack stat to 20 or some such?

[Inardesco]

Raising the attack doesn't do much. The 2handed bug basically means that 2handed units are interupted in their attacks more often than 1handed units and thus attack less. So raising attack stats doesn't do anything.

On the other hand, only the Grand campaign suffers from it and its fixed in all the Kingdoms Campaigns + basically every mod out in the world wide web.

The Retrofix mod puts all the Kingdoms modifications into the grand campaign, most notably being the 2handed fix+ boiling oil

[Ashur_Arbaces]

Originally posted by Vectros:

So I've heard of this 2 handed bug, tried finding a fix but haven't found anything, was anything released to deal wit hit? Alternatively, has anyone come up with a way to balance them out through modding the descr_unit file? Say, raising the attack stat to 20 or some such?

I suggest searching a way to mod them yourself (just boost defensive skill and make them cheaper to buy and maintain, much easier than trying to speed up the attack animation), it's definetly doable and there should be a guide online.

[Killer007]

what about dismounted bronken lances?

[Gamer Supreme]

Originally posted by Killer007:

what about dismounted bronken lances?

They have worse morale and attack than DFK, but are a worthwhile unit, especially as most italian factions have morale boosting standards.

[Fay]

Since a few of Denmark's units have already been brought up (Norse Axeman and Norse Swordsman), how are Dismounted Huscarls?

[Gamer Supreme]

Huscarls are a tad expensive, but they can go toe-to-toe with Dismounted Conquistadores, and win half the time. They've got armor piercing, they have good morale and can scare other units. They're a very good unit thats about on par with DFK, probably even a bit better, but cost more.

[Ashur_Arbaces]

Originally posted by Killer007:

what about dismounted bronken lances?

Worse morale and attack but better defense and cheaper cost, not as good as DFK but solid units overall.

[Ashur_Arbaces]

Originally posted by Dragon Priest:

Since a few of Denmark's units have already been brought up (Norse Axeman and Norse Swordsman), how are Dismounted Huscarls?

Originally posted by Lowly Noob:

Huscarls are a tad expensive, but they can go toe-to-toe with Dismounted Conquistadores, and win half the time. They've got armor piercing, they have good morale and can scare other units. They're a very good unit thats about on par with DFK, probably even a bit better, but cost more.

Dismounted Huscarls are good units. Their initial cost is way too high for a unit of their caliber (you won't see many good players use them in multiplayer in the basegame) but their upkeep is low and they're available very early (they will mostly fight militia spears) before anyone can create DFK so in the early stages of the campaign they're definetly usefull.

Preformance wise they're on the lower end of heavy infantry Dismounted conquistadores will easiyl win 10/10 times against them (it's different in the expansion but thats a different story) and DFK only lose if they're unlucky.

[Gamer Supreme]

Originally posted by Ashur_Arbaces:

Preformance wise they're on the lower end of heavy infantry Dismounted conquistadores will easiyl win 10/10 times against them (it's different in the expansion but thats a different story) and DFK only lose if they're unlucky.

I have to disagree, Dis Hucarls can beat Dis Conquistadors with some consistency, but of course most of the time they will lose. Their AP pretty much puts them on an almost level playing field with most other Heavy inf, except if they only have decent armor, making them easier to kill than DFK and Dis Conq. They are indeed too expensive for their quality but are a solid unit nevertheless that CAN take on more expensive and better units.

[Ashur_Arbaces]

Originally posted by Lowly Noob:

Originally posted by Ashur_Arbaces:

Preformance wise they're on the lower end of heavy infantry Dismounted conquistadores will easiyl win 10/10 times against them (it's different in the expansion but thats a different story) and DFK only lose if they're unlucky.

I have to disagree, Dis Hucarls can beat Dis Conquistadors with some consistency, but of course most of the time they will lose. Their AP pretty much puts them on an almost level playing field with most other Heavy inf, except if they only have decent armor, making them easier to kill than DFK and Dis Conq. They are indeed too expensive for their quality but are a solid unit nevertheless that CAN take on more expensive and better units.

Just tested it again (1vs1 Grassy flatland, clear weather, medium difficulty), Dismounted Conquistadores beat Dismounted Huscarls 10/10 times. 7 out of 10 times it wasn't even close and the other 3 times I microed the dismounted huscarls to give them somewhat of an advantage. Dismounted Huscarls don't hold up to Dis Conquistadores at all. Stats should make it clear really, it's 16/18,5 (Dis. Conq. after factoring in the Dis. Husc. AP) vs 11/15 (Dis Husc.).