Rods, reels and lines

[OndeTv]

- this is a continuation/reply of another thread that got far from its original thread name.
( http://steamcommunity.com/app/468920/discussions/0/1500126447391745214/?ctp=2 )

Originally posted by AceOfSpades:

Originally posted by OndeTv:

Yeah, i actually agree with you.

In my opinion every reel should have a maximum drag strength in kg / lb. And say 4 to 20 settings from 0 to the reels max drag. That more closely matches real life reels and drags.

That way players have better control, but still need to upgrade their reels as they get better line.

I'm sure they will change this soon when they add the real stats to all the gear.

I am not sure if I agree or not....I mean what is the number in reference to? Does 100 mean 100 pounds of drag? 100 percent of some infinite drag amount ( ie1000 lbs)? 100 percent of the lines test strength so it changes depending on the line?

Not like it makes a difference at the moment anyways the drag itself has still not been redone any other than numbers changed on reels.

I understand thier need to want you to buy newer reels so you have to make lower level reels inferior somehow.

I don't understand why they changed the numbers on the reels without doing anything else on drag at the same time. It just caused confusion and made folks think the drag actually got fixed. Why not just wait and roll out the whole drag system at the same time. They just took a broken system and just changed numbers around making it a confused broken system hehe.

Ultimately I would like to see a drag that models real world drag, I should be able to set the drag pretty darn close to exactly were I want. And hopefully it will work like real drag does but I doubt it. I suspect the drag will like all fishing games be part of the "landing" game were you don't dare let too much tension or your line will snap! But that is the way it goes.

It will get fixed in one form or another.

What i mean is that i think that every reel should have a capped max drag in kg/lb depending on your unit setting. That cap should correspond to a line, and have a matching rod. In essence three parts forming a balanced set. Here's The first 4 rods, reels and lines as they are in the game right now:

Rods (total available: 24, 21 "short", 3 "long"):
---------------------------------------
Dakino DXP --- durability 10 --- lvl 1
Dakino MAX-65 --- durability 15 --- lvl 1
Okena BR --- durability 20 --- lvl 2
Dakino DV-G40 --- durability 25 --- lvl 2


Reels (total available: 36, 18 "standard", 18 "casting"):
---------------------------------------
Okena K-03X --- durability 10, drag 1, type standard --- lvl 1
Dakino ZAM-F40 --- durability 12, drag 1, type standard --- lvl 1
Dakino H-970 --- durability 14, drag 1, type casting --- lvl 1
Dakino TLA-D --- durability 17, drag 1, type casting, lvl 1


Lines (total available: 15, 10 "mono", 5 "braid")
---------------------------------------
Okena TTU-X --- durability 0.40 kg, thickness 0.16mm, type mono --- lvl 1
Kubot J-15 --- durability 0.90 kg, thickness 0.19 mm, type mono --- lvl 1
Okena TTU-XI --- durability 1.60 kg, thickness 0.22 mm, type mono --- lvl 2
Okena FL-531 --- durability 2.50 kg, thickness 0.16 mm, type braid --- lvl 2



What i would do for starters is scrap the durability. That is a system that can always be added later. Then i'd scrap thickness and mono/braid until the system uses line flexibility and line visibility. Then i would make sets that match level progression. An example of this could be:


Lvl 1:
Rod: Dakino AAA, breaking strength 0.6 kg
Reel: Dakino BBB, drag max 0.5 kg, drag steps 4 (off, 0.1 kg, 0.3 kg, 0.5 kg)
Line: Dakino CCC, test strength 0.4 kg

Lvl 2:
Rod: Okena AAA, breaking strength 1.6 kg (+/- alternation see below)
Reel: Okena BBB, drag max 1.6 kg, drag steps x (x, x, n..) (+/- alternation, see below)
Line: Okena CCC, test strength 1.60 kg


- and so on. I would match the numbers on the starter set perfectly, so that you can only really "break" something if you set your drag to the highest being slightly stronger than the line.

After that, i would balance each set for the line test strength, but alternate the reel or the rod being slightly stronger or weaker than the line. That creates an upgrade path where it would make sense to buy pieces in a certain order if you wanted to min-max, but on the other hand gives people the freedom to beef up whichever piece they like first.

I would make a graph (not shown in the game ofc) showing the strength of all these components, so that it would be easy for me to see the strength of all the items, that there are no gaps, and that they are all somewhat evenly spaced out.

Then i would perhaps fill in some some extra gear going in between 2 steps just to make it interesting, possibly with special attributes. However, i would most likely keep that out of the game until i had some special attributes to actually put on those extra pieces.

Lastly, i would flesh out the stats with numbers corresponding to real life, so that people who actually fish would recognise the numbers as correct, and non anglers would also get a feel for it and actually learn something.

As an example i remembered i had a VERY old line lying on the top of my aquarium. I just fished it out, and this is what it says:
Ron Thompson DynaLink, 0.20 mm, 4,2 kg / 9 lb, 100 m (x 2 - doublepack)

Now as you can see (and know) there is a very long way from the real worlds 4.2 kg 0.2 mm mono line and to the games 1.6 kg 0.22 mm mono. And i wouldn't be surprised if somehow the same 0.2 mm mono is stronger today than when i bought this line i never used many years ago.


So yeah, in short i would graph it out and possibly shake that graph a little so it has uneven bumps everywhere except the starter set. And then i'd tack on real world values. If necessary i would rebalance fish sizes to fit progression. OR keep fish sizes, and make the player travel all the different lakes (scrap licenses) in search of the sizes they can catch on their gear. That would also make revisiting all lakes at different times in the progression relevant.



Btw devs, the gear previews neither zoom on scroll or rotate on rmb, but that is a small thing i doubt noone cares much about at this point. Still, Huge thumbs up on almost completely removing the helicopter issue

[OndeTv]

A little addition to my above wall of text:
- It's easy to make a fictive system. But it's also easy for such a system to get "out of hand". Using real world values both creates recognition for players who know how to fish, create learning for those who don't and lastly it puts more simulator to the simulator name while helping to retain balance.

[OndeTv]

After all that the tension indicator could be broken into the 3 set parts. F ex like this with crappy ASCII graphics:

|--------------------| Rod breaking threshold
|----------|---------| Line breaking threshold
Middle line being the drag setting

So for example during a fight with the lvl 1 set and drag set to 0.3 kg, it could look something like this:

|XXXXXXXXXX---| Rod breaking threshold
|XXXXXX-----|-----| Line breaking threshold
Where X is the current tension with a lifted rod

And with a lowered rod
|XXXXXX-----------| Rod breaking threshold
||XXXXXXXX|XX---| Line breaking threshold
(note that line tension is higher than drag setting, so the reel should release line here)

... and so on and so forth.

However, i would not begin to alter the tension indicator until i knew my earlier gear values were absolutely solid in terms of usability, no bugs, fitting progression and so on.

[OndeTv]

Yeah, i was thinking the same when i wrote breaking strength for rods. Actually i had 1 rod break for me once. Well, light coast spin rod that broke the day after i was on a cod fishing trip as a kid. I got lucky and got an 11 kg cod on it, and since it was boat fishing there was quite a lot of pumping involved. Too much for that rod.

But besides the point, i do agree that breaking strength probably isn't the best mechanic for the rod. It could instead just be wear and tear (durability). The higher the strain on the rod, the faster you wear it down, just for the sake of gameplay.

It could be done in many ways. Regardless, i would make sure to take offset in balanced real world values first, and then adjust gameplay after to retain both realism and fun. And longevity/replayability.

By longevity/replayability i mean after the gear is balanced and mechanics work, i'd then have to create timesinks/stoppers. Something to make the player want to progress, and having to work for it. That could be balancing money, balancing xp, balancing wear and tear, it could be benefits on boats and rental/gasoline costs, it could be whatever.

When mechanics work the way they should and with recognisable values, players will feel "at home". When players want to get from A to B they need to overcome obstacle C. Without an obstacle C or if they can get to B just like that, then getting there holds little fun or value.

[Raintek ✅]

:> Once again great work. We will definitely use it. I hope we can change the drag system this week.

[OndeTv]

While i have you Raintek, check out the suggestions section with fish sizes ;)

[Neikz]

i think thats a great idea.
For me personally, i aint a fisherman, but im interested, i have to read through forums wich type of role, line, rod and hook/bait/lure fits together as i played FP and moved to RF 4 while this is early acces, but i play this game too and like it much.

anyway...the good thing about this, the real fishermans of this community could give you advices how to proceed, while new players (like me) can´t fish 70 kg monsters straight away (same in reallife i guess) getting knowledge of fishing and the simulation part of this game would come closer.

a level orientation is okay, but i wouldn´t make it obviously which single parts fits he best.
so you are free to explore the gear if you don´t want any advices.

[Ace Lightning]

Originally posted by Raintek ✅:

:> Once again great work. We will definitely use it. I hope we can change the drag system this week.

that would be great and make the game playable for me (at this point when a 1kg fish can break 40kg line it makes me want to uninstall )