Lucky Coin Evolution

[Fortunato]

Since Lucky Coin requires having done a total of 77.7 million damage in dungeons I'm having it do Scrapyard D1 (2/0/0) alone. This process is grueling - after about a week of it Lucky Coin has dealt a little more than 2mio damage...

Is this really gonna take months of soloing or am I overlooking a much more efficient way of doing this? Any advice? It's much appreciated!

[Fel]

Just put him in a team, he will accumulate damage over time on top of not wasting a whole team for little to no gains.

If you want to maximize his damage, send him against water enemies, since earth does extra damage to water.

[Fortunato]

Originally posted by Fel:

Just put him in a team, he will accumulate damage over time on top of not wasting a whole team for little to no gains.

I tried that as well but as part of the regular dungeon team going much deeper, Lucky Coin only did a few thousand damage compared to other team members doing 100x that. So I went back to having it as the sole damage dealer.

[Ryu82]

D1 has way less enemies than d3, so if you can do d3, that is always better. If you can do only d1, then better go for volcano where there are summoners.
The easiest way to increase the damage are elemental challenge dungeons, though. Use coin always there and at best with inferno sword, forest armor and inferno gloves with wind/fire gems.

[luizpedronovak]

What helped me --a lot-- was Elemental Challenge. Around 60% of the 77 mi damage came from there, with good fire equip. At some point I got 1.4 million every try, so ~ 4 mi every day.

Now, with the Challenge Points option of improving the amount of tickets you get every day, it should be even better.

[Fortunato]

Thanks, these tips are pretty helpful!

[muljostpho]

challenge dungeons

Oh!? Never even considered that those could be relevant for anything besides the gems you get from them.

I keep up with using up some tries each time I get the warning that I'm full or close to full in my bank of 10 tries. (I've done the elemental one 1000 times and I've done the others 294 times each.) But it's been a long time (I don't even know how long) since I changed the challenge team around at all (I've got 2 assassins (cat, penguin), 2 mages (red dragon, rabbit), a defender (dog), and a supporter (fairy) assigned there) and I've never bothered giving the challenge team any items (because it seems to me like a waste of resources). I just let whatever happen and take the gems they manage to produce.

Maybe I ought to throw Coin and Hourglass into that lineup for a while to help farm their evo conditions though. (Those two plus three blacksmiths plus a supporter, maybe? Bunch of blacksmiths to bulk up Coin's damage.) Let's see, currently I've got.... Coin is at 812,030 damage dealt and Hourglass is at 92,521 enemies slowed.

And... Okay, this is kinda messing around and not 100% following the advice that was given but I had the new challenge team go once into each of the ones that isn't the elemental one. New status: Coin is at 922,974 (most of the gains from neutral challenge (weird side note on that, though, is that the blacksmiths in the front row with Coin dealt fairly close to the same damage as Coin... is the blacksmith bonus not applying or is my Coin just that weak to begin with?) and Hourglass is at 92,839 enemies slowed.

One try left. Now I'll see about that elemental challenge dungeon... It's still a thing that blacksmiths in the front are dealing near the same damage as Coin, but now coin is at 1.032M damage dealt and Hourglass is at 93,147 enemies slowed.

So, yeah... This could help a little. I might try to tweak it a bit next time though. In these tries just now the blacksmiths each had hammers equipped and Coin & Hourglass each had xp swords equipped. I should try it with something with a higher attack bonus on Coin and maybe try some knives on Hourglass and the blacksmiths. See what that does to Coin's damage in each try.

[luizpedronovak]

Originally posted by muljostpho:

So, yeah... This could help a little. I might try to tweak it a bit next time though. In these tries just now the blacksmiths each had hammers equipped and Coin & Hourglass each had xp swords equipped. I should try it with something with a higher attack bonus on Coin and maybe try some knives on Hourglass and the blacksmiths. See what that does to Coin's damage in each try.

In your example, Hourglass went from 93147 to 92521, so 626 enemies a day, so 319 days to evolve based on challenges alone. Not very good. And I think HG is not helping very much in that fight. Maybe the knives change that, but I would remove it and put a proper supporter in its place. Maybe you will last longer in the fight and do more damage this way.

[Tabris the Free]

I doubt blacksmiths stack (but can't find any supporting info at the moment). Knives will definitely help boost damage.

[luizpedronovak]

Originally posted by Tabris the Free:

I doubt blacksmiths stack (but can't find any supporting info at the moment).

Answer will depend on Ryu probably.

I tried to test a team with 0, 1 and 2 blacksmiths respectively. The problem is that 2 blacksmiths make the team too weak, and the pets die early, doing less dmg. Adding loads of items, though, countered that and increased the end result. It's hard to pinpoint, but it seems that it does stack.

Average values from 5 tries:

• 0 blacksmiths: Coin avg dmg: 2.454 Million
  
• 1 blacksmith: Coin avg dmg: 3.780 Million
  
• 2 blacksmiths and lots of feathers and potions: Coin avg dmg: 4.218 Million ( second batch 4.681 )
  
• 2 blacksmiths and no restorative items: Coin avg dmg: 3.568 Million

So, it seems it stacks... but without loads of items you die early and the avg will be lower. If you are willing to waste ~ 2000 feathers a day, or more, maybe it's strategy...

(3 blacksmiths and no items reduced the avg to... 0.8 Million. Not good at all.)

[starwol]

Originally posted by Fortunato:

after about a week of it Lucky Coin has dealt a little more than 2mio damage...

According to the notes I wrote accompanying a stat export I solod a D1 D0 dungeon and was "doing millions of damage a run" so sounds like it's not quite ready for that. No idea how long a run was (probably 6 hours) nor what the "sufficient stats" were exactly (I'd guess level 140, growths 120k, equips were T3 SSS+20).

If I'd noticed damage form challenge dungeons counting I'd have tried that approach because it doesn't take up a team.

[muljostpho]

Originally posted by luizpedronovak:

Originally posted by muljostpho:

So, yeah... This could help a little. I might try to tweak it a bit next time though. In these tries just now the blacksmiths each had hammers equipped and Coin & Hourglass each had xp swords equipped. I should try it with something with a higher attack bonus on Coin and maybe try some knives on Hourglass and the blacksmiths. See what that does to Coin's damage in each try.

In your example, Hourglass went from 93147 to 92521, so 626 enemies a day, so 319 days to evolve based on challenges alone. Not very good. And I think HG is not helping very much in that fight. Maybe the knives change that, but I would remove it and put a proper supporter in its place. Maybe you will last longer in the fight and do more damage this way.

Well the first change I noted there was 318 enemies total between 5 (inefficient, apparently) uses of my tries. That was total change after one each of the neutral, water, fire, wind, and earth challenges. And the second change I noted was 308 enemies all in a single try. That was the all-in-one elemental challenge. If I were to do only the elemental challenge that'd be 3 x 308 = 924 enemies per day.

I have been sticking them both in actual dungeons for a while before this, of course. I think at the time when I first stuck Coin into a dungeon my Hourglass's slow count was somewhere between 60k-65k. So somewhere around 30k slows in the same time that it took Coin to get that first 812k damage. (About a month? I don't know, does 1k slows per day from D2 Scrapyard sound plausible? I just do things and collect the overall results. I don't keep an eye on all the little details that lead to those results. But if that's really the pace I've been getting from dungeons alone, then dungeons+challenges looks like it's actually almost doubling my pace and I may have undersold it with that "it could help a little".)

Anyway...

Originally posted by Tabris the Free:

I doubt blacksmiths stack (but can't find any supporting info at the moment). Knives will definitely help boost damage.

Really? Why wouldn't they stack? I see no reason for that to be blocked. Although I guess I can't actually say for certain either. Aside from the fact that I wouldn't have paid attention to the exact details to analyze and compare different options properly if I had tried a team like this before, the fact is that normally with the actual dungeons when I throw a team together I'm trying to cover as many of the classes as possible (especially the ones asked for by whatever dungeon traps/events). Assassin, mage, rogue, blacksmith, defender, supporter. A balanced and complete team. (Although the blacksmith can often be the first to get dropped when something else is wanted. And you can get by with only one or the other of assassin and mage if you have to.) I never had any reason to doubt that multiple blacksmiths could stack their buffs, but the catch is that it would be a tradeoff to set a team up for that instead of using all the other roles you possibly can. Same as it would be a tradeoff if you want to stack multiple rogues for a bigger boost to loot drops. Or multiple defenders or multiple supporters to enhance survivability.

*shrug* I can try to experiment a bit in the challenge dungeons over the next day or two worth of tries. (Or just savescum one day's tries a few times. If I care to bother doing that.)

EDIT: Ah, thanks Luiz for doing some tests on the stacking question. (Although your numbers for 2 blacksmiths are meant to be in millions like your other numbers, right? Because the way you wrote it it looks like you got 4.2k and 3.5k for those numbers. I'm just assuming from the context of the 2.4M, 3.7M, and 0.8M around it that those should also be millions.)

So they do stack... But since I haven't been giving the challenge team any items to use and I'm not interested in changing that part, it likely canceled out whatever benefit I got from the extra boost anyway and the overall effect was likely worse because of the tradeoff in survivability. Noted.

EDIT2: Hourglass needs 200k slows to evolve. With 93,147 slows already counted that's 106,853 more that I still need. With the assumption of +626 slows per day that would've been about 171 more days needed to get the rest of them. Or with my expectation that it's actually more like +924 slows per day that would be about 116 more days. But again, that's ignoring whatever it's getting from the regular dungeon runs. And I'm collecting results from those right now, actually. So let's see... I averaged +134.2 slows per hour over that run. x24 is 3220.8 but I'll round down and call that +3220 slows per day. So that's about 33 days to finish based on the dungeon alone. Add the two sources together and that's overall about 26 more days for me to finish getting it ready to evolve. I miss the timing on dungeon and campaign restarts a lot though, so that number may be too optimistic.

And I'm back to "it could help a little" being a fair assessment, in my opinion.

...

Hmmm, Coin averaged 2138.8 dmg per hour in this run that just finished. About 51,331 dmg per day. Wow, even if my 3 blacksmith challenge dungeon idea was a horrible idea it still meant that Coin dealt twice as much damage in that one elemental dungeon try compared to what it can deal in a day of normal dungeons. Granted, it isn't in the most ideal placement in the regular dungeons. When I moved things around from what I had been doing before to squeeze it in, I could only free up a spot for it in the Volcano. And it's in Volcano with both an assassin and a mage dealing damage. Big difference from me trying to force it to carry the team in the challenge dungeon.

[Tabris the Free]

Blacksmiths do not stack in a dungeon team.

Base team: Coin, Valkyrie, Fairy. No knives are used on any pets.
All blacksmiths used were at dungeon level 1.

Coin Damage with N blacksmiths in Elemental:
0: 8.0e6
1: 14.1e6
2: 14.1e6
3: 13.4e6

All blacksmiths were CL 58 (I got lucky). A blacksmith gives a boost of 1% per CL. Damage boosts from more than one should have been obvious.

[luizpedronovak]

Originally posted by Tabris the Free:

Blacksmiths do not stack in a dungeon team.
Base team: Coin, Valkyrie, Fairy. No knives are used on any pets.
All blacksmiths used were at dungeon level 1.
Coin Damage with N blacksmiths in Elemental:
0: 8.0e6
1: 14.1e6
2: 14.1e6
3: 13.4e6
All blacksmiths were CL 58 (I got lucky). A blacksmith gives a boost of 1% per CL. Damage boosts from more than one should have been obvious.

Hm... what's the possibility of those blacksmiths simply dying and not helping much after that? Also: does any of them has the maxed rune patch? My Mozilla Firefox has it, and it could be leading me to wrong results (or it could stack ONLY in this special case, one with RP and another with normal equip). Just ideas, but your results seem much more clear than mine.

Originally posted by muljostpho:

If I were to do only the elemental challenge that'd be 3 x 308 = 924 enemies per day.

Oh, I misread. But I still see that as a low result... Maybe it can be improved with wind equip.

Originally posted by muljostpho:

EDIT: Ah, thanks Luiz for doing some tests on the stacking question. (Although your numbers for 2 blacksmiths are meant to be in millions like your other numbers, right?

Yes, you are right, I'm brazilian and the number notations make me crazy sometimes. Corrected.

Originally posted by muljostpho:

EDIT2: Hourglass needs 200k slows to evolve. With 93,147 slows already counted that's 106,853 more that I still need.

Scrappyard 3 was my way to evolve Hourglass. The boss can create enemies and this is perfect to the task. Challenge helped too, but as a bonus. Unfortuntely, Scrappyard 3 is (probably) the hardest dungeon of the main 5. No easy way here.

Originally posted by muljostpho:

Hmmm, Coin averaged 2138.8 dmg per hour in this run that just finished. About 51,331 dmg per day. Wow, even if my 3 blacksmith challenge dungeon idea was a horrible idea it still meant that Coin dealt twice as much damage in that one elemental dungeon try compared to what it can deal in a day of normal dungeons.

With a well balanced team Elemental Challenge is a game changer for that. And this may be me being a bore, but remember that we now may get 5 challenge tickets a day. Also, maxed Rune Patch is a bliss. Those things really help now.

[Tabris the Free]

Looking at the logs, specifically damage in the water room (Queen Slime + Summons), Coin's damage did not change after all blacksmiths died. This leads me to conclude that a blacksmith does not need to be alive to grant its bonus.

Note that the other rooms are not good for analysis as the bosses grow stronger every turn, reducing your damage. Slimies get stronger too, but they don't last many turns (I hit for 200k a hit)

I specifically avoided using rune patch as it would skew results. :)

[Tabris the Free]

On the subject of Hourglass, there are other ways to cheeze the slows. The absolute fastest way to get the slows is to do 1 room dungeon runs with a solo Hourglass.

The goal is to _not_ kill the enemies, so you want to minimize damage.

Room 1 has 4 enemies. If they all survive to turn 50 (room collapse), that's 200 slows. In 15 minutes.

If you do Volcano, you have a chance for Cinder Spiders which summon enemies. You'll likely lose to an ultimate attack before turn 50 but you'll be doing more slows each turn.

I would not recommend this method unless you are a very active player. (I don't like runs shorter than 6 hours.)