Idling to Rule the Gods

Idling to Rule the Gods

MaceX Sep 9, 2020 @ 7:42am
Cost for changing pet class balance
I was looking at the cost and what it would take to make a class change. I noticed that you can also use a pet token to change your class but still loose half of the experience just as if you used materials. Although if you use a Class Change Token, there is not penalty. I am wondering if that could be off balance. A Pet Token cost 300,000 pet stones, but a Class Change Token only cost 250,000 pet stones. Since the Pet Token still cost 50,000 pet stones more, should there still be a penalty?
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Showing 1-15 of 17 comments
Fel Sep 9, 2020 @ 7:47am 
The penalty is probably because the pet token has a lot of uses already, to make it an option if you really have no other alternative but not a good one if you can get the class change token instead.

At least that's how I see it, between regular pets that need token being added, skipping some evolution requirements and increasing growth, the pet token already has a lot of uses without adding class change on top of it.
muljostpho Sep 9, 2020 @ 1:45pm 
I think when Ryu was first putting the dungeons / class evos update together the pet token wasn't even going to be usable for that. Pretty sure that it was originally just a choice between the items+classlevels cost or the class change token, and that it was a change later in the beta updates for all of that new content when he allowed the pet token to be usable as a (not necessarily "good") compromise between those options. That could be part of why it seems kind of awkward.

I know that he definitely didn't want class changes to be something that we would be doing frivolously without giving it much thought. It's why the items part of the cost is just a flat rate of 1000 T2 materials no matter which pet it is (when I'm sure that most of us would have preferred if it had been a cost that scales with the number and tier of materials that it had cost to evolve them in the first place).

So... yeah... Unless it's the book pet with its evo bonus granting it and it alone 100% free class changes (which Ryu seems to regret allowing since it can be called overpowered), our options are to pick one of:
1) pay 1000 T2 mats (which can seem like an insane price for a lot of the easier pets, especially the ones that only needed T1 mats to evolve in the first place) and lose half their class levels
2) pay 1 pet token (which as Fel noted has other things that it could be used for instead) and lose half their class levels
3) pay 1 class change token (which is exclusively used for only this) and have no loss of class levels

Maybe he should have considered some other option for how to handle this. But it is what it is.

You probably want to hang onto raw pet stones instead of just blindly converting them into either type of token with no plan, and then you'll only convert them when you have something specific that you're trying to do. You want a new pet unlocked? Get a pet token. You want to change a pet's class? Get a class change token.

The option to use a pet token on a class change... It's kind of there for if a player happens to have several pet tokens stockpiled and already has all pet token exclusive pets unlocked and wants to change a pet's class but doesn't have enough stones available to buy a class change token... But even then it's still not the greatest deal because there could still be new pets added to the game later on, and you may want to spend your pet tokens on those pets.
masterjunko Sep 9, 2020 @ 4:37pm 
1000 T2 Material is really not that much. I say it should be 10 T3 material. :P
Fel Sep 9, 2020 @ 4:45pm 
Even with several alchemists you can only get a few hundreds of T2 materials a day at most, so the class levels on top of a few days worth of alchemist production doesn't seem unbalanced.
Also, 10 T3 would mean 80 T2 materials so unless you don't have a cape it would be much cheaper instead.
MaceX Sep 9, 2020 @ 6:09pm 
My main thought for this post was the class exp loss that cost more than something that causes no loss.
DoctorNovakaine Sep 29, 2020 @ 2:07am 
Originally posted by muljostpho:
So... yeah... Unless it's the book pet with its evo bonus granting it and it alone 100% free class changes (which Ryu seems to regret allowing since it can be called overpowered)

If I have to get 50 friggin' million % might unleash, I'd better damn well get something overpowered in return. My current max is 10,000%, I don't know how I'm ever going to reach 50,000,000%.
muljostpho Sep 29, 2020 @ 4:42am 
Originally posted by DoctorNovakaine:
Originally posted by muljostpho:
So... yeah... Unless it's the book pet with its evo bonus granting it and it alone 100% free class changes (which Ryu seems to regret allowing since it can be called overpowered)

If I have to get 50 friggin' million % might unleash, I'd better damn well get something overpowered in return. My current max is 10,000%, I don't know how I'm ever going to reach 50,000,000%.

Ouch, yeah. It is a crazy one. I'm so far off from even thinking about that evo as well. Both in terms of the 2500 T2 materials and the 50M% unleash.

I've got... 374 of that material on hand right now, plus enough T1s to make 185 more... The cheapest fire pet I don't have evolved yet is the Phoenix, which is asking for 500 of that material.

At the moment I've currently got a 21k% unleash, at 2 days into the current rebirth and with less than a million clones leveling those mights over that amount of time. (I have 40M clones but I've been putting most of them on the RTI feature.) Heavier investment of clones in those mights (and more time) would get it higher, of course. But an even bigger factor is that I probably need to massively improve my DMC score to improve what each might level contributes to the strength of the unleash.

When I ran my DMC I had 50/50 DRC and 0/50 CBC done (and that's STILL at 0/50 now) and I think maybe about 20/40 of my 1KC done (and that's currently up to 30/40 and I've been sitting on that for a while, intending to get around to finishing the rest of them and never actually doing it). I scored 11,251 might with those stats. I need to have all of those challenges maxed before I try to update my DMC score. I think something like 20k or 30k is supposed to be possible with all relevant challenge rewards maxed?

Finishing the 1KCs would also help to improve how high I can get my unleash within any given amount of time, since they speed up might leveling. Hmmm... Since the addition of the spacedim I suppose that the book evo run could also benefit a bit from the player being powerful enough to blast P.Baal 65 and focus a ton of light clones on the bonus that's unlocked by that one. Get the might leveling speeds up a little bit more, there.

...

You know what... I suspect that even with the best possible DMC score and over 100M clones and perhaps even a million light clones as well... I'm guessing that 50M% unleash could still be some sort of monster weeks-long grind to reach. Just settling in and waiting it out.

(Is a million light clones a lot? I'm at 150k myself but I think a lot of other players have been creating them a lot faster than I have.)
Ryu82  [developer] Sep 29, 2020 @ 4:46am 
50 million % might unleash isn't THAT hard to reach. You just need maxed 1KCs, a decent score of DMC and amount of clones. When I evolved book it took me in total a bit more than 8 days, so ~6 days of leveling might with 50 milliocn clones and a DMC of 37356.
starwol Sep 29, 2020 @ 7:45am 
To provide some might level numbers:
A 50k DMC gets there with 5261/4251/3685/3292 in the last 4 might skills.
A 10k score gets there with 11850/9583/8310/7428
The 10k score takes about 5 times as long to reach using the same clone count. So good DMC is a two folded time saver as a good DMC score ultimately needs clones which are also good for training might.

To put this in a different way with a 50k score.
1m% unleash is reached at 1631/1292/1121/999
5m% unleash is reached at 2715/2175/1886/1684 (time ~2.8x1m%)
10m% unleash is reached at 3334/2680/2324/2074 (time ~4.26x1m%)
Time for 50m% unleash ~10.68x1m%. A quick check with a 10k score finds 10.33x1m% instead. So the ratio is similar.

The point of looking at like that is to demonstrate how they multiply with each other (and OA+ being more useful) so it takes a lot less time than you might think. Those numbers come from playing with this spreadsheet[docs.google.com] (p.s. I think it's a bit outdated as no RTI to be seen but that might tab should still be valid for unleash% and planning DMC).

As for that 50k score. Well, you really need in the ballpark of 51m clones, optimal (but no spacdim) 9 rebirth run, maxed UCC etc to score something like that. The clones puts you in top 60 steam players for clone count (while the score would be top 25 DMC). That a was a bit unrealistic of me. My bad.

So say you have a lower score and wonder what you will spend the time on. Don't forget the other requirements:
-T2 materials
-2b suns created (not bought)
-give 6.8e27 divinity

T2 fire materials will be higher supply than other T2 materials when you get D2 fire dungeon consistent. The lava filled corridor event in effect means 13.5% more D2 rooms (you really should have this one done before the run but I thought it should be mentioned given it is a requirement).

If your suns take 1 second to create and you have a CC of 1000 (makes the maths simple) that is like 3.6e6 an hour (so taking 555.56 hours to get 2e9). Consume v1+v2 liquids to get that down to 138.88 hours. If you're offline a lot timing will be different too. Since this bit takes a while anyway you shouldn't fret the unleash might as may not be your bottleneck (however, the unleash will be longer than you think if you make the most out of a long, high P.Baal rebirth by bb powersurge etc).

The divinity is a matter of pump up div gen a lot (which you want to do for non-stop Suns anyway) then open lucky draws hoping for doublers. This could also take a while depending on how much divinity you have before you start opening draws and the daily limit. Assuming all other costs are negligible, say you get one double a day (at 2.6% chance this is reasonable when opening 50) this takes 7 days starting at 5.32e25, 10 days at 5.86e24 divinity, 14 days at 3.66e23 (ofc you need enough lucky draws in reserve though various dungeon events and item camps might keep you topped up). It's been too long since I've done a long run so I don't know how long it takes for the div gen to reach those milestones.

Now that the overflow challenge exists one silver lining of the long rebirth and the divinity needed is that you are able to create/buy a lot of universes at the end which may all but guarantee getting the max per challenge amount of 500 overflow points (though from a pure overflow point to time perspective this isn't good value but what else would you do with this time). <-- The universe component of an OFC caps out at 100,000 points which happens at about 7e8 Universes on hand. This results in about 317 overflow points. You're going to have to make/upgrade some black holes :p

Edit: Book evolved after 4 days 21 hours. No BB powersurge or clones on div gen would have saved about 12 hours I guess.
Last edited by starwol; Oct 12, 2020 @ 4:08am
muljostpho Sep 29, 2020 @ 3:37pm 
50k DMC is possible? That's quite a bit better than I thought I'd heard mentioned. (Although what I'm thinking of was said back when DMC was new. I guess UCC wasn't a thing yet at that time?)

About how long it could take, I almost just said "week long" in that part of my comment, but then I second guessed myself and said "weeks long" instead. Thought I was being too optimistic by guessing that it could take just one week.

Nice to see some context on what sort of might levels one would actually need to aim for, there. Roughly 7k-12k levels in each of them with my kind of DMC score, or roughly half of that with a DMC score five times better than mine.

I suppose I forgot to consider that the bonuses from the four relevant skills multiply with each other to create that overall bonus in the tooltip. If I look at the tooltips on the individual unleashes it's two bonuses each at around 210%, one bonus at around 320%, and one bonus at around 430% making up the overall 22k% bonus that unleashes will currently give me. Been a while since I last looked at them individually.

Originally posted by starwol:
The divinity is a matter of pump up div gen a lot (which you want to do for non-stop Suns anyway) then open lucky draws hoping for doublers. This could also take a while depending on how much divinity you have before you start opening draws and the daily limit. Assuming all other costs are negligible, say you get one double a day (at 2.6% chance this is reasonable when opening 50) this takes 7 days starting at 5.32e25, 10 days at 5.86e24 divinity, 14 days at 3.66e23 (ofc you need enough lucky draws in reserve though various dungeon events and item camps might keep you topped up). It's been too long since I've done a long run so I don't know how long it takes for the div gen to reach those milestones.

Obviously I haven't been pushing the divgen any harder than I've been pushing might lately (the overwhelming majority of my clones have been working on getting levels for the RTI feature most of my time in each rebirth since that feature was added), but if it helps provide some context: With divgen gain and speed each in the 370s a 6 hour campaign just brought me about 9e21 divinity. Of course, if I was specifically trying to push to gain as much divinity as possible more clones would have been working on it and I could have had more levels on those upgrades.

Hmmm... I forget what was needed to unlock the book in the first place and my divgen for that run might have been overkill for what was asked for, but I think I might have had divgen levels in the high 400s or low 500s in my book unlock run. Does that sound like it would be right?

Man... I think I tried to burn through all that divinity on monuments afterwards before rebirthing and ended up giving up on using it all since there was just so much of it piled up. Still, with the amount that I did use up my statistics page shows a total of over 18e24 divinity used. I doubt that too much of that has been from any other runs besides the book unlock run.

If I'm remembering correctly what sort of levels I had for the unlock, I'm going to guess that divgen levels somewhere in the high 500s or low 600s should cover the e25 starting point you mentioned to help reach the evo.

Have I seen people mention divgen levels at over 1000 as what they've had for their book evo run? Might be a goal to aim for that's less dependent on hoping for the correct results from a lucky draw surplus.
DoctorNovakaine Oct 15, 2020 @ 1:49pm 
Yeah, I'm not even close to having all 1KCs done, and my one DMC to unlock the Book in the first place was pretty weak. Plus, I only have 22 million clones. I'm not sure what my creation speed is at the moment since I'm in a UBC, but I feel like I remember the suns not being much of a problem, even though I'm only at 500 CC. It's really the might unleash that I'm not confident about.

Ah, well, another thing to think about after maxing UBCs, I guess. That's already going to take me well into next year at the rate I'm taking it.
Fortunato Mar 30, 2021 @ 12:58pm 
I've been working on evolving book for the past days so here are some numbers for reference:

At a DMC score of 38'800, maxed 1kC challenges, 2k CC @300k CS and 70million clones
  • Usable Skills to 5'000 / 5'000 / 3'913 / 5'000 / 5'000 / 4'832 for ⇨51.7m%
  • Divinity generator was able to maintain sun creation at around 1'000/6'000/1'000.
  • For the 6.8 Octillion divinity I built the generator to 3'000 / 15'000++ / 3'000.

So far the rebirth took a total of almost 9 days and all that is left to do is collecting the remaining divinity. I estimate about two more days depending on my lucky draws.
Ryu82  [developer] Mar 30, 2021 @ 2:17pm 
Why did you build much more divinity gain than converting speed? It is much more efficient to build the same amount of divinity gain and converting speed.
Something like 3k/7k/7k gives more divinity than your 3k/15k/3k div gen and is much faster to level.
Hsanrb Mar 30, 2021 @ 2:39pm 
Originally posted by Ryu82:
Why did you build much more divinity gain than converting speed? It is much more efficient to build the same amount of divinity gain and converting speed.
Something like 3k/7k/7k gives more divinity than your 3k/15k/3k div gen and is much faster to level.

If your dumping clones into might training... not knowing how high those levels need to be you'd want to keep the div gen with as few clones as possible. I toyed with a closer 1:5:3 system in the leveling before putting this off for other pet evolutions/challenges and will evolve the book during my UBV4 5/5 challenge.
Ryu82  [developer] Mar 30, 2021 @ 3:41pm 
Originally posted by Hsanrb:
Originally posted by Ryu82:
Why did you build much more divinity gain than converting speed? It is much more efficient to build the same amount of divinity gain and converting speed.
Something like 3k/7k/7k gives more divinity than your 3k/15k/3k div gen and is much faster to level.

If your dumping clones into might training... not knowing how high those levels need to be you'd want to keep the div gen with as few clones as possible. I toyed with a closer 1:5:3 system in the leveling before putting this off for other pet evolutions/challenges and will evolve the book during my UBV4 5/5 challenge.

That still contradicts with the leveling speed. 1:5:3 might be a bit better, but his 1:5:1 is really bad. If you make the div gen to 3k/7k/7k, you might need 3 million more worker clones compared to that 3k/15k/3k but have that in 1/3 of the time. Which means your other ~65 million clones have a whole day more time to do something else, like getting might up faster. And 3k/7k/7k is alos 20% or so more divinity from UBs, Div camps, Lucky Draws and such.
Last edited by Ryu82; Mar 30, 2021 @ 3:44pm
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Date Posted: Sep 9, 2020 @ 7:42am
Posts: 17