Food Balance Alternative - Ant Lifestyles

[Bassilth]

So, the developers decided that we get too much food from insects and want to reduce the amount of food we get so we rely more on foraging.

I get this but we got a problem.
Problem is that not all ants are the same. Some ant types will eat more sugar but some ants literally go out on raids to hunt insects. Aphids and seeds will do very little for them.

Plus by reducing food you make combat excessive, tedious, and frustrating. No reward whatsoever. I can already imagine Queen of the Hill. Aphids give like 10 food each and at night you got to fight those beetles and beat the ladybugs back. The only reason that lvl is playable is because of the food you get from the beetles. The aphids not only dont give enough food to sustain the ants but get attacked way too excessively at night by ladybugs, sometimes by 5 at the same time. This means there is barely any food, the soldiers you have get decimated by beetles and crabs but you get no food in return and soldiers cost way too much compared to aphid food that only spawns during the day. And this is just one lvl getting gunned.

I see some solutions here that would benefit everyone.
Make 3 types of lifestyles the player can choose from when starting a mission/freeplaymode
.
Forager Ants
Hunter Ants
Versatile Ants

Forager Ants:
The player can collect food from aphid farms and collect seeds. They can still hunt insects but they will give very little food for the ants, including grubs. This lifestyle corresponds to the change the developers are trying to make. More foraging and farming, less hunting.

Hunter Ants:
The player cannot collect food from aphids or collect seeds. They can only hunt other insects and the food they get from insects is increased (current normal value). This lifestyle is a more difficult version of the current gameplay. No farming, only hunting.

Versatile Ants:
The player can collect food from aphids and collect seeds. They can also hunt other insects and the food they get from insects is increased (current normal value). This lifestyle is exactly the same as the current gameplay. Hunting and farming.

Why is this better?
1. Because it will be a player choice.
2. Gives every lvl/mission/freeplay mode new perspectives. Each will play differently, depending on what lifestyle you choose.
3. Perhaps this setting could be added to AI enemy ants as well, so the player can choose if they want the enemy to farm aphids while the player cannot. Etc. Or all enemy ants can just be Versatile Ants.

This would make everyone happy.

Thank you for reading.

[Buffy]

Regarding your comment about 2.2, the devs plan to rebalance the old levels around enemies dropping less food, so you can expect the 2.2 aphids to give more food than they do currently and there might even be other new food sources added.

[RealDeathClawProductions]

They'll probably buff the amount of food aphids give/make them spawn food more often when they start working on the rebalance, same thing might apply to the Ladybugs that come with them as well (as technically they're not aggressive creatures).

That much being said, I think this idea has some potential (of course it'd only affect the omnivorous species, considering that Leafcutters have a completely different system in place but no matter what the rebalance isn't really going to affect them.)
If the devs do decide to do this, it'd most likely be a species by species bias and not be editable in freeplay. On that note, imagine if at the start of making a new formacarium we got to choose which of these lifestyle options we wanted to do.

[Scyobi_Empire]

The game isn't a simulation, many things in game are abstracted and simplified down (due to the RTS nature). Food is abstracted as in the real world, many ant's store food in social stomachs and don't store it on the ground where mould can grow, so splitting what foods players can get is an unnecessary element in my opinion

[The Anax]

The developers have actually stepped back and said that they will not get involved with this at the moment. So we don't really know what they're going to choose or how it is actually going to affect the game yet. Just wanted to make sure that everybody realizes that nothing has been confirmed as of yet.

I am hopeful they are not going to turn the game upside down, and change what has been for years. And make the game different than what I have loved playing all this time. I think that was the original idea, as we've seen with these new levels, but then they saw the rather loud backlash, and I think it gave them pause.

So for now we're actually waiting to see, what they're going to change. Are they going to make tiger beetles on 2.x be worth half as much? And maybe double the amount that tiger beetles are on the new levels? Are they going to make everything the same across the board, either by making tiger beetles worth 200 on all levels, or making them only worth 50? I don't know. None of us know yet, I'm waiting to find out before I know if I still desire to play or not.

[Scyobi_Empire]

Originally posted by anaximanes_2000:

The developers have actually stepped back and said that they will not get involved with this at the moment. So we don't really know what they're going to choose or how it is actually going to affect the game yet. Just wanted to make sure that everybody realizes that nothing has been confirmed as of yet.

I am hopeful they are not going to turn the game upside down, and change what has been for years. And make the game different than what I have loved playing all this time. I think that was the original idea, as we've seen with these new levels, but then they saw the rather loud backlash, and I think it gave them pause.

So for now we're actually waiting to see, what they're going to change. Are they going to make tiger beetles on 2.x be worth half as much? And maybe double the amount that tiger beetles are on the new levels? Are they going to make everything the same across the board, either by making tiger beetles worth 200 on all levels, or making them only worth 50? I don't know. None of us know yet, I'm waiting to find out before I know if I still desire to play or not.

Play freeplay with 150 difficulty, 45 food Tigerbeetles can sustain a large army (so can 35 food Coachhorses)

[RealDeathClawProductions]

Originally posted by Scyobi_Empire:

Originally posted by anaximanes_2000:

The developers have actually stepped back and said that they will not get involved with this at the moment. So we don't really know what they're going to choose or how it is actually going to affect the game yet. Just wanted to make sure that everybody realizes that nothing has been confirmed as of yet.

I am hopeful they are not going to turn the game upside down, and change what has been for years. And make the game different than what I have loved playing all this time. I think that was the original idea, as we've seen with these new levels, but then they saw the rather loud backlash, and I think it gave them pause.

So for now we're actually waiting to see, what they're going to change. Are they going to make tiger beetles on 2.x be worth half as much? And maybe double the amount that tiger beetles are on the new levels? Are they going to make everything the same across the board, either by making tiger beetles worth 200 on all levels, or making them only worth 50? I don't know. None of us know yet, I'm waiting to find out before I know if I still desire to play or not.

Play freeplay with 150 difficulty, 45 food Tigerbeetles can sustain a large army (so can 35 food Coachhorses)

Something else worth mentioning is that the Devs mention that creatures in freeplay might eventually get different stats from their Campaign counterparts.

[Bassilth]

Originally posted by anaximanes_2000:

The developers have actually stepped back and said that they will not get involved with this at the moment. So we don't really know what they're going to choose or how it is actually going to affect the game yet. Just wanted to make sure that everybody realizes that nothing has been confirmed as of yet.

I am hopeful they are not going to turn the game upside down, and change what has been for years. And make the game different than what I have loved playing all this time. I think that was the original idea, as we've seen with these new levels, but then they saw the rather loud backlash, and I think it gave them pause.

So for now we're actually waiting to see, what they're going to change. Are they going to make tiger beetles on 2.x be worth half as much? And maybe double the amount that tiger beetles are on the new levels? Are they going to make everything the same across the board, either by making tiger beetles worth 200 on all levels, or making them only worth 50? I don't know. None of us know yet, I'm waiting to find out before I know if I still desire to play or not.

That they have stepped back is no reason to stop suggesting, however. In fact, now is the best time to put out the ideas to present to them when they are ready to talk about it again.

I feel the choice of lifestyle is the best way to go, since it makes literally everyone happy. The developers can reduce food from insects for those who wish to go for a more farming/foraging experience, others can keep the current settings, while some can go with a mix of both.

Originally posted by RealDeathClawProductions:

(of course it'd only affect the omnivorous species, considering that Leafcutters have a completely different system in place but no matter what the rebalance isn't really going to affect them.)

Thank you for pointing this out. Well, yes, obviously this would only affect ants that can do farming and can sustain themselves from other insects. Leafcutters cannot, so they would stay the same.

Originally posted by Scyobi_Empire:

so splitting what foods players can get is an unnecessary element in my opinion

That is where you are wrong, my friend. Limiting food sources affects gameplay quite a lot, since surviving and getting the food requires different strategies.
You are a forager? Then you are better off splitting your colony into different groups to guard harvesting sites. You are a hunter? Better build that army and storm nests or spend the day/night hunting for insects. This would be especially interesting if the night would spawn more insects that give more food than during the day. So during the day the hunter would defend its nest or attack other nests and during the night it would hunt for food.
It would be especially interesting to give the AI different lifestyles, so they get access to food you dont.

[The Anax]

Originally posted by Scyobi_Empire:

Originally posted by anaximanes_2000:

The developers have actually stepped back and said that they will not get involved with this at the moment. So we don't really know what they're going to choose or how it is actually going to affect the game yet. Just wanted to make sure that everybody realizes that nothing has been confirmed as of yet.

I am hopeful they are not going to turn the game upside down, and change what has been for years. And make the game different than what I have loved playing all this time. I think that was the original idea, as we've seen with these new levels, but then they saw the rather loud backlash, and I think it gave them pause.

So for now we're actually waiting to see, what they're going to change. Are they going to make tiger beetles on 2.x be worth half as much? And maybe double the amount that tiger beetles are on the new levels? Are they going to make everything the same across the board, either by making tiger beetles worth 200 on all levels, or making them only worth 50? I don't know. None of us know yet, I'm waiting to find out before I know if I still desire to play or not.

Play freeplay with 150 difficulty, 45 food Tigerbeetles can sustain a large army (so can 35 food Coachhorses)

Just because you say something, does not make it true. Simple math shows me that you are mostly incorrect. If we assume you are playing as anything besides your formicarium colony, I single tiger beetle can eat at least, least, 10 ants before death. So if that's 5 food to replace just those, you'd not even break even on 45 food.

But I'm not here to argue anyway. It's very clear to the majority of players (and btw I have 750 hours of playtime and have beaten everything on insane, including the new levels, and I am a video game dev for a living so I have experience on my side here) that the food amounts being lowered is a bad design choice. The devs will either pull a Blizzard Activision move and double down on mistakes because of their egos or they will genuinely listen to feedback from the community (because of the food amounts on the new levels had stayed the same there would not even have been a single complaint about it on the forums, but instead we have ample threads with almost unanimous opinions that the food reduction is bad).

This game is at a serious crossroads design wise and any new players coming in, especially when the 1.0 goes live will make or break Slug Discos future as a game developer. Their design decisions will shape not only their future as a company but also the perception of the players and fans. This is a bigger deal than just a few numbers on the corpse of a pretend tiger beetle. I am waiting to see which path the devs will choose.

[Serafine]

There are VERY few ants that have a strict diet specializing on just one food source - and those that do have usually carved out their niche to a point where they expecrience barely any competition (one that comes to my mind would be Lasius flavus, a very shy 100% underground species tending to root aphids that by their very nature barely ever comes into contact with other ants and would make for a pretty boring gameplay, or Prenolepis imparis, a scavenger species that in some areas seemingly lives on a 100% earthworm carcass diet and avoids competition/conflict simply by being active only when it's way too cold for most other ants to operate).

Almost all ants eat other arthropods (often dead ones as most ants are scavengers), even harvester ants like Messor barbarus can be surprisingly aggressive hunters. Also harvester ants and leafcutters both drink plant sap and many ants visit flowers (sometimes to a point where they are relevant pollinators). Most meat-eating ants tend to aphids, treehoppers and other plant-sucking insects but some of them (like various Solenopsis and Tetramorium species) also harvest seeds, at least during some seasons. Many non-seedeaters also gather seeds for their elaiosomes, fleshy structures that can be found on the seeds of some plants and contain a lot of protein and other good stuff.

I wouldn't exactly call the completely indifferent "we eat everything" ereptor diet the most satisfying game mechanic but there are actually a good amount of ant species with a similarly broad diet.

[Bassilth]

Originally posted by Serafine:

There are VERY few ants that have a strict diet specializing on just one food source -

This is less meant as an approach towards full realism and more to a variety of gameplay styles that satisfies everyone involved as well as the developers who seem want to take away one gameplay style in favor of another. A solution to the problem, I think. Sure, some realism is injected as some ants do prefer one kind of food but will take other kinds as well when found.

[Ñupo]

Originally posted by Scyobi_Empire:

The game isn't a simulation, many things in game are abstracted and simplified down (due to the RTS nature). Food is abstracted as in the real world, many ant's store food in social stomachs and don't store it on the ground where mould can grow, so splitting what foods players can get is an unnecessary element in my opinion

The problem is that there's too many factors that scream "simulation" while others are "this is a game"
A big example is the great dragonfly from 4.2... Gamey as hell? Yeah, very. No animal with a functional brain will simply flop on top of a fire ant trail or stay there after a couple stings. Fun? Yes. It's very enjoyable to take it down, specially because you get some food for it (still, absolutely *nothing* compared to the cost of actually killing it. something on the order of hundreds of ants.)
"simulation" mechanics being the fact your ants have a very slow response time to markers, coupled with the fact you can't micro them at all, and the only way around it is the non-solution of disabling combat and having them run headfirst around a frog, not something real ants would do.
There's a pretty large dissonance between some systems, but I love the game for it.
In the older levels if my ants got caught and had to fight I'd go "Oh well, unexpected, but if I take it down I get to replace the dead ones"
Now I simply groan whenever they enter combat with literally anything because I'll be set back who knows how much food.

Fire ants, being THE murderhobo ant (along with army ants) getting their primary food from nuts and aphids instead of simply turning anything they come across into a chalk outline and eating it just feels so, so very wrong.

[The Anax]

Originally posted by Ñupo:

Fire ants, being THE murderhobo ant (along with army ants) getting their primary food from nuts and aphids instead of simply turning anything they come across into a chalk outline and eating it just feels so, so very wrong.

I couldn't agree more lol

[RealDeathClawProductions]

Originally posted by Scyobi_Empire:

The Fire ants, being THE murderhobo ant (along with army ants) getting their primary food from nuts and aphids instead of simply turning anything they come across into a chalk outline and eating it just feels so, so very wrong.

100% Agree with this.

[Hagon Wyvon]

Originally posted by Ñupo:

Originally posted by Scyobi_Empire:

The game isn't a simulation, many things in game are abstracted and simplified down (due to the RTS nature). Food is abstracted as in the real world, many ant's store food in social stomachs and don't store it on the ground where mould can grow, so splitting what foods players can get is an unnecessary element in my opinion

The problem is that there's too many factors that scream "simulation" while others are "this is a game"
A big example is the great dragonfly from 4.2... Gamey as hell? Yeah, very. No animal with a functional brain will simply flop on top of a fire ant trail or stay there after a couple stings. Fun? Yes. It's very enjoyable to take it down, specially because you get some food for it (still, absolutely *nothing* compared to the cost of actually killing it. something on the order of hundreds of ants.)
"simulation" mechanics being the fact your ants have a very slow response time to markers, coupled with the fact you can't micro them at all, and the only way around it is the non-solution of disabling combat and having them run headfirst around a frog, not something real ants would do.
There's a pretty large dissonance between some systems, but I love the game for it.
In the older levels if my ants got caught and had to fight I'd go "Oh well, unexpected, but if I take it down I get to replace the dead ones"
Now I simply groan whenever they enter combat with literally anything because I'll be set back who knows how much food.

Fire ants, being THE murderhobo ant (along with army ants) getting their primary food from nuts and aphids instead of simply turning anything they come across into a chalk outline and eating it just feels so, so very wrong.

Talking about it, I just realize that the bugs on the surface just being braindead and not even trying to avoid ant trails and whenever they see it, they jump right into their demise. At least we should have a like, fear AoE when there is a lot of ants in 1 area which will make the bugs not so aggressive to the trail and will try to run from it.

[Hades_The_Dragon]

Originally posted by Ñupo:

Originally posted by Scyobi_Empire:

The game isn't a simulation, many things in game are abstracted and simplified down (due to the RTS nature). Food is abstracted as in the real world, many ant's store food in social stomachs and don't store it on the ground where mould can grow, so splitting what foods players can get is an unnecessary element in my opinion

The problem is that there's too many factors that scream "simulation" while others are "this is a game"
A big example is the great dragonfly from 4.2... Gamey as hell? Yeah, very. No animal with a functional brain will simply flop on top of a fire ant trail or stay there after a couple stings. Fun? Yes. It's very enjoyable to take it down, specially because you get some food for it (still, absolutely *nothing* compared to the cost of actually killing it. something on the order of hundreds of ants.)
"simulation" mechanics being the fact your ants have a very slow response time to markers, coupled with the fact you can't micro them at all, and the only way around it is the non-solution of disabling combat and having them run headfirst around a frog, not something real ants would do.
There's a pretty large dissonance between some systems, but I love the game for it.
In the older levels if my ants got caught and had to fight I'd go "Oh well, unexpected, but if I take it down I get to replace the dead ones"
Now I simply groan whenever they enter combat with literally anything because I'll be set back who knows how much food.

Fire ants, being THE murderhobo ant (along with army ants) getting their primary food from nuts and aphids instead of simply turning anything they come across into a chalk outline and eating it just feels so, so very wrong.

Its just like... if im losing 10, or even 20 ants to the amphibians bs tongue spam... i want to at *least* get enough food to replace my losses ya know? when every battle is essentially a net loss or break even, theres no room to make sure you *stop* being a net loss