Ant upgrade tree idea

[Immortalits]

I've posted a long time ago a quite complicated upgrade tree idea for ants, but I tink, that truly would be a bit too much, so I was thinking a simpler version.
The main point for the tree is to give the higher lvl breeding chambers a bit more meaning too.

So practically the idea is, to just simply give all upgrade lvl instead of the ant itself 2-2 abilities to chose from and those abilities will be unlocked for each individual ants, when their breeding chamber gets upgraded to that lvl.
It would give a bit more variety and specialisation for ant types and a meaning for lvl 2 breeding chambers too, along with a general meaning for higher lvl stuff, because normally, it's quantity>quality, but this way, it might be a viable option to upgrade ants before expansing their numbers too.

[Spyder]

Originally posted by Immortalits:

I've posted a long time ago a quite complicated upgrade tree idea for ants, but I tink, that truly would be a bit too much, so I was thinking a simpler version.
The main point for the tree is to give the higher lvl breeding chambers a bit more meaning too.

So practically the idea is, to just simply give all upgrade lvl instead of the ant itself 2-2 abilities to chose from and those abilities will be unlocked for each individual ants, when their breeding chamber gets upgraded to that lvl.
It would give a bit more variety and specialisation for ant types and a meaning for lvl 2 breeding chambers too, along with a general meaning for higher lvl stuff, because normally, it's quantity>quality, but this way, it might be a viable option to upgrade ants before expansing their numbers too.

What you are suggesting seems to be on the side of "the more the better" That isn't always the case, as it can be detrimental! For instance, there may be so many ants that try to leave the nest that they have a kind of que to leave the nest happens in freeplay all the time) Also it really isn't good for the frames. It may just be me but I prefer less ants but they are strong.

[Rayalot72]

Originally posted by MasterAntlion:

Originally posted by Immortalits:

I've posted a long time ago a quite complicated upgrade tree idea for ants, but I tink, that truly would be a bit too much, so I was thinking a simpler version.
The main point for the tree is to give the higher lvl breeding chambers a bit more meaning too.

So practically the idea is, to just simply give all upgrade lvl instead of the ant itself 2-2 abilities to chose from and those abilities will be unlocked for each individual ants, when their breeding chamber gets upgraded to that lvl.
It would give a bit more variety and specialisation for ant types and a meaning for lvl 2 breeding chambers too, along with a general meaning for higher lvl stuff, because normally, it's quantity>quality, but this way, it might be a viable option to upgrade ants before expansing their numbers too.

What you are suggesting seems to be on the side of "the more the better" That isn't always the case, as it can be detrimental! For instance, there may be so many ants that try to leave the nest that they have a kind of que to leave the nest happens in freeplay all the time) Also it really isn't good for the frames. It may just be me but I prefer less ants but they are strong.

The problem is that it is seemingly an objective fact that you will do better if you spam lvl 1 instead of upgrading. The only exception that has ever occurred is on 2.2, where upgrading mortars for AoE is an optimal strategy. 3.1 and 3.2 may eventually reveal upgrades to be worthwhile, but this is yet to happen, and it already looks quite unlikely for 3.1.

[Immortalits]

Originally posted by MasterAntlion:

Originally posted by Immortalits:

I've posted a long time ago a quite complicated upgrade tree idea for ants, but I tink, that truly would be a bit too much, so I was thinking a simpler version.
The main point for the tree is to give the higher lvl breeding chambers a bit more meaning too.

So practically the idea is, to just simply give all upgrade lvl instead of the ant itself 2-2 abilities to chose from and those abilities will be unlocked for each individual ants, when their breeding chamber gets upgraded to that lvl.
It would give a bit more variety and specialisation for ant types and a meaning for lvl 2 breeding chambers too, along with a general meaning for higher lvl stuff, because normally, it's quantity>quality, but this way, it might be a viable option to upgrade ants before expansing their numbers too.

What you are suggesting seems to be on the side of "the more the better" That isn't always the case, as it can be detrimental! For instance, there may be so many ants that try to leave the nest that they have a kind of que to leave the nest happens in freeplay all the time) Also it really isn't good for the frames. It may just be me but I prefer less ants but they are strong.

As Rayalot72 said too, ant spamming is the way to go in the game, it's just don't worth it to upgrade ants at all, at least before you get over 100% of population in freeplay with the exception of the King of the Hill (2.2) Formicarium map) in insane difficulty. And that is also just the consequence of having to split your ants against both attacking nests that both has overwhelming numbers (because difficulty only means more enemies and that's it), so many, that it is requred to have AoE damage.
There are no other cases, where mortar ants do better btw, not even the 3.1 Formicarium challenge.
Currently upgrades are just overpriced crap, that looks good, but worths almost nothing.

Yes, after reaching a certain size, where you can't (in formicarium pop cap) or it's not worth (in freeplay) to get more ants, then the only way left is to upgrade them, but before that, it's only worth incresing numbers, because upgrades give so little compared to having 2 extra ants.

Yes, 3 lvl 1 ant easily overwhelm 1 lvl 3 ant in any possible way.
And we still have no use for lvl 2, that lvl currently is just a filler.

not to mention, there are quite some cases, where smaller ants just get oneshotted, so upgrade doesn't matter, like vs new praying mantis, tunnelweb spiders, tigerbeetle larvae, etc., etc., so it's alway about numbers currently.
My upgrade tree would bring multipple new things to the game:
a bit more variety for ant versions, like tanky black ants or dps black ants, but with a bit more specialization and a meaning for upgrades.

For lvl 1-2, it's already there, what they could pick (the current abilities), for lvl 3, it's half done already, since all ant gets an ability at lvl 3 (which don't have enough value unfortunately in most times), so we only need an extra option to chose from OR we can have the ant's current basic abilities to be the 2nd option for lvl 3 upgrade, so practically it's just a few thing relocalized, but an extra ability to pick from for lvl 3 would be better, especially, since there are a lot of good options, that the currently available ant types strongly need:

black ant:
- for dps version, agro reduction/ hiding ability or something like that
- for tank version, combat healing, so the backing for 0.5 sec will have a value for them

for wood ants:
- bonus range, I mean, like 60-80 bonus or something.

for majors:
- regeneration... they are the supposed tankline, but without meaningfull restoration abilities, they suck hard, especially after you won a battle and a lot of them are on low HP, the fight is doomed to be lost, because they will die almost instantly -> they're bad tankline -> stun version is better, black ants must be the real tankline - you're forced to have those upgrade path if you wish to be effective, which the devs want to avoid as far as I know

[flyons_gary]

Adding some synergetic effects that scale with level and number of ants might allow a happy median. Higher levels get a larger boost, so upgrading them to get a more effective overall force would be wanted.

[Immortalits]

Originally posted by flyons_gary:

Adding some synergetic effects that scale with level and number of ants might allow a happy median. Higher levels get a larger boost, so upgrading them to get a more effective overall force would be wanted.

Well, naturally a good middle way, where both path is viable with certain pros and cons, but currently a simple mass lvl 1 ants is the best tactic and lvling them up barely feels at all, except in certain cases, like mortars with their extremely usefull splash damage option.

[LanceShields]

I think y'all are missing a huge factor. Food. It costs 5 food to replace an black ant or media ant and 15 to replace a major. It also takes time which lets enemies advance. Being able to take 1 more hit is a huge boon when it comes to fighting the bigger insects, especially the snails in 2.1. So the point here is that when a bunch of your lvl 1 ants die really quickly, your available food dwindles quite quickly. It adds up in the insane difficulty levels where you only have 100-200 food to fight a battle.

Although i think the upgrades are bit too expensive. Maybe make the upgrades a little bit cheaper.

[Immortalits]

Originally posted by BrentRageous:

I think y'all are missing a huge factor. Food. It costs 5 food to replace an black ant or media ant and 15 to replace a major. It also takes time which lets enemies advance. Being able to take 1 more hit is a huge boon when it comes to fighting the bigger insects, especially the snails in 2.1. So the point here is that when a bunch of your lvl 1 ants die really quickly, your available food dwindles quite quickly. It adds up in the insane difficulty levels where you only have 100-200 food to fight a battle.

Although i think the upgrades are bit too expensive. Maybe make the upgrades a little bit cheaper.

You're missing my points... I'm saying, that for start, it's almost exclusively better to go for more ants (except 2.2 insane diff) until you get hard or soft capped in ant population, then upgrades are naturally the only way to get stronger. We're not talking about upgrades are absolutely useless at any point, but where it actually matters, it's useless in most cases with practically a single exception.
But before you get pop cap that, it's only worth getting more ants, they gather food much quicker... 3 workers get at least 2.5 times more food, than a single lvl 1 worker.
In terms of combat, I wrote down you the ammount of oneshot mechanics too... numbers are better, than value especially in those cases.
Your point of 'lvl 1 ants die quickly' just don't make sense if you compare 3 lvl 1 ants to a single lvl 3 ant, 3 of them overwhelm anything better, than a single lvl 3 and even if we multiply thing, let's say 20 ants at lvl 3 are much much worse, than 60 lvl 1 ants.
With an example: just take a tunnelweb spider, it can grab around 4-6 ants before it gets killed or even more if you rush it down with some workers and fighters in the 1.2 formicarium map.
I'm gathering all the unprotected food before the first spider and I can get 16 +7 workers and 3 fighters... what you think will happen if I go there with 5 workers and 1 fighter, but at lvl 3 instead of lvl 1? I lose the map on the spot.

So unless it's an extremely special case, where there is a chokepoint or you're up against insane number of closely stacked up enemies for mortar ants to be effective, numbers win.

If you're talking about freeplay, go to somewhere else, that gameplay mode is to go to extremes, you do whatever the heck you want to do, you won't die if you don't mess things up too much.
Before food gets lauchable in the lategame, things provide more food, than it costs to kill them; in the lategame ubers rush to your base and give you 3.000 free food... depending on settings, they might even kill each other or get to your base at laughable ammount of HP, because other creatures attacked the uber.
Not to mention, that freeplay is the exact place where you DON'T look at, when you try to talk about balance things.
In freeplay, you either set initial difficulties too high or you survive and get a meaningfull force and in the worst case, you hole up in your nest and wait incoming enemies and you get the most minimal losses possible... yes, there will be a bit less food income, but you will neither lose too much ants either, and after a certain point, ubers will bring you easy food anyways.