Endless Strategies

[Coach's Coach]

Despite these boards being dead, I'm going to post a new thread in hopes of sparking discussion for endless mode strategies.

Which hero do you choose, what's your build order/plan, and how far can you get without items?

My current best is Bruxa on Temple of Evil, level 60-62 or so, no items. Prior to that I would wing it and only managed level 30-35 with other heroes, same level, no items. I don't know if I got lucky, or if she is just OP.

In general I use mostly archer towers, one infantry/knight tower at the end to cover each path, then aim for mech towers with missiles. If I can afford it then I throw in a dwarf stomp tower or two.

[johnnynav]

After much trial and error, I settled on Bonehart. On Ruins of Nas'de, I can consistently get to level 62 with no items, level 68 with around 3 nukes, 3 freeze wands and a bonus heart. I hit level 72 with items… once. And my average with items is level 64. All items will be used in the last 1 or 2 rounds in fairly rapid succession. My best score is 1.6 million.

I will lose EVERY TIME because: 1) the Anoobis bosses have a stupid amount of HP and are unstoppable no matter what you send against them, 2) Bonehart will stop engaging enemies and just allow them to pass by (which is a coding or GPU glitch), 3) enemies who reach the tail end of the paths suddenly become immune to targeting and damage.

It is ALWAYS an unsatisfying, abrupt and unfair end to the game because I am always at peak strength (all tower upgrades maxxed; no loss of hearts), and enemies are barely getting halfway down the path before I mow them all down. Then, the game balance just tilts and BAM... it's over.

My tower strategy is to set up four barracks near the bottom to plug up the three paths: one barracks on left, one in center, two on right path. Then, I build one Dwarven bomb tower between left and center path, and one Dwarven bomb tower between center and right path.

I spend the first 10 or so rounds using Bonehart + reinforcements to mop up every enemy the moment they spawn onto the map. I make sure to always immediately click the spawn button to claim the extra gold. Using this strategy allows me to build up my two bomb towers to Mechas, and max out the missiles for both towers ASAP. This 6-tower config alone will easily control the map for another 10 rounds while I steadily build up gold. This is my "baseline" set up. And then the fun begins...

When I have the two Mechas both upgraded to full rockets (550 gold each), and the barracks upgraded to level 2 barracks, I will move Bonehart down between the center and right path to provide air support to my Mecha and barracks units. I will simply move him laterally between the left and right paths as things get hairy and he is needed to clear up a cluster of stubborn enemies. Bonehart is really slow, so you want to make his movement efficient over short distances. He will flip back and forth between two paths as enemies approach. Enemies rarely get past him, but occasionally I'll have to throw down a couple reinforcement soldiers to hit some pesky wasps, or to engage some sand worms.

From here, I usually start building one tower at a time and upgrading it to almost max strength before moving on to a new tower. I have tried dozens of combinations of additional towers: from all Mechas to all Dwarven Dwaarp towers with fire upgrades to all mage towers (both Necromancers and Wizard). I have tried strategically placing the archer towers so that their range bonus affects 5 or 6 towers around them. Heck, I've even tried an all barracks strategy with both Paladins and Assassins.

The irony (and frustration) is that none of these configs work much better than any other to extend the game! I have been able to get to level 60 using all the above strategies; so there is some satisfaction in trying new tower combos and arrangements and watching them do their work on the enemies. It's fun to try an all-Assassin strategy where you use them to mine gold. Sadly, they don't do a thing to slow down the Anoobis bosses.

I've tried to create bottlenecks and slow down enemies by overwhelming them with barracks, oil slicks and other regenerating units (like the Death Riders). I once tried to jam up the paths with skeletons using my Necro towers, but by level 50 all of my skeletons just get mowed down by enemy archers so fast that they are worthless.

In the end, you lose because your damage output is simply too slow to counteract the OP bosses who just waltz down the paths like meat shield tanks and exit the map with a third of their HP intact. It's bull$hit.

All this said, it's still fun to play a round to kill a half hour.

[Coach's Coach]

Originally posted by johnnynav:

After much trial and error, I settled on Bonehart. On Ruins of Nas'de, I can consistently get to level 62 with no items, level 68 with around 3 nukes, 3 freeze wands and a bonus heart. I hit level 72 with items… once. And my average with items is level 64. All items will be used in the last 1 or 2 rounds in fairly rapid succession. My best score is 1.6 million.

I will lose EVERY TIME because: 1) the Anoobis bosses have a stupid amount of HP and are unstoppable no matter what you send against them, 2) Bonehart will stop engaging enemies and just allow them to pass by (which is a coding or GPU glitch), 3) enemies who reach the tail end of the paths suddenly become immune to targeting and damage.

It is ALWAYS an unsatisfying, abrupt and unfair end to the game because I am always at peak strength (all tower upgrades maxxed; no loss of hearts), and enemies are barely getting halfway down the path before I mow them all down. Then, the game balance just tilts and BAM... it's over.

My tower strategy is to set up four barracks near the bottom to plug up the three paths: one barracks on left, one in center, two on right path. Then, I build one Dwarven bomb tower between left and center path, and one Dwarven bomb tower between center and right path.

I spend the first 10 or so rounds using Bonehart + reinforcements to mop up every enemy the moment they spawn onto the map. I make sure to always immediately click the spawn button to claim the extra gold. Using this strategy allows me to build up my two bomb towers to Mechas, and max out the missiles for both towers ASAP. This 6-tower config alone will easily control the map for another 10 rounds while I steadily build up gold. This is my "baseline" set up. And then the fun begins...

When I have the two Mechas both upgraded to full rockets (550 gold each), and the barracks upgraded to level 2 barracks, I will move Bonehart down between the center and right path to provide air support to my Mecha and barracks units. I will simply move him laterally between the left and right paths as things get hairy and he is needed to clear up a cluster of stubborn enemies. Bonehart is really slow, so you want to make his movement efficient over short distances. He will flip back and forth between two paths as enemies approach. Enemies rarely get past him, but occasionally I'll have to throw down a couple reinforcement soldiers to hit some pesky wasps, or to engage some sand worms.

From here, I usually start building one tower at a time and upgrading it to almost max strength before moving on to a new tower. I have tried dozens of combinations of additional towers: from all Mechas to all Dwarven Dwaarp towers with fire upgrades to all mage towers (both Necromancers and Wizard). I have tried strategically placing the archer towers so that their range bonus affects 5 or 6 towers around them. Heck, I've even tried an all barracks strategy with both Paladins and Assassins.

The irony (and frustration) is that none of these configs work much better than any other to extend the game! I have been able to get to level 60 using all the above strategies; so there is some satisfaction in trying new tower combos and arrangements and watching them do their work on the enemies. It's fun to try an all-Assassin strategy where you use them to mine gold. Sadly, they don't do a thing to slow down the Anoobis bosses.

I've tried to create bottlenecks and slow down enemies by overwhelming them with barracks, oil slicks and other regenerating units (like the Death Riders). I once tried to jam up the paths with skeletons using my Necro towers, but by level 50 all of my skeletons just get mowed down by enemy archers so fast that they are worthless.

In the end, you lose because your damage output is simply too slow to counteract the OP bosses who just waltz down the paths like meat shield tanks and exit the map with a third of their HP intact. It's bull$hit.

All this said, it's still fun to play a round to kill a half hour.

Thank you for the thorough reply. I wouldn't be surprised if your post summed up how most of us feel, and what we have attempted, yet are unable to articulate.

I don't know of any game that has an "endless" mode where balance doesn't eventually go off the rails... maybe Bloons? Even then, it will always get stupid. Endless/Infinite is literally that, so realizing there's a limit or asymptote and then not liking it... it's like what did we expect?

Anyway, it's nice to hear someone voicing most of the same things I went through. The assassin gold farming idea was fun, but it doesn't seem to pay off. Dwaarp's are my favorite for everything but the big bosses, which need those Golden Longbows from Kingdom Rush Origins.

Speaking of... when will Origins get an Endless Mode!?

[Vamrem]

Just wondering to know if is there a thing to win, more than the score.

For example, seems good to make level up your heroes. Does them keep all experience gained after the encounter?

[johnnynav]

Originally posted by Coach's Coach:

Thank you for the thorough reply. I wouldn't be surprised if your post summed up how most of us feel, and what we have attempted, yet are unable to articulate.

I don't know of any game that has an "endless" mode where balance doesn't eventually go off the rails... maybe Bloons? Even then, it will always get stupid. Endless/Infinite is literally that, so realizing there's a limit or asymptote and then not liking it... it's like what did we expect?

Anyway, it's nice to hear someone voicing most of the same things I went through. The assassin gold farming idea was fun, but it doesn't seem to pay off. Dwaarp's are my favorite for everything but the big bosses, which need those Golden Longbows from Kingdom Rush Origins.

Speaking of... when will Origins get an Endless Mode!?

Happy to chime in. Good to see other KR fans still experimenting and pushing the limits of the game. And speaking of limits, yeah, I think we've just kinda reached them with the "endless" levels. I only wish the damage curve was better designed so that it didn't feel so abrupt when you reach that tipping point around level 70. In my opinion, there should always be a way to "win" and advance to the next level in an endless mode game, even if the way forward is not easy or obvious; or even if success requires a bit of luck. I just don't see it, though.

The way the endless levels 'end' feels sloppy and lazy to me from a programming and user experience perspective. When you look at the level of effort and time commitment required to play a whole game, it's too easy to get to level 69 or 70, and then impossible to get past level 74. So, 25 minutes of repetitive easy build up for about 2 minutes of real challenge? Nah. That's not a positive trade. That's punishing. And hacking (i.e. spamming nukes) shouldn't be the only way through that ceiling. That strategy (if you can call it that) is too expensive and time consuming, and there's no real skill in it, either.

I recently discovered a YouTuber named "Voduke" who has gone off the deep end with his analysis of KR. Check him out. Dude has a whole channel devoted to breaking down every hero, ability, enemy, tower, and map to a very granular level. He's actually figured out the patterns, math and probabilities for how the KR programming works. I'm not that insane of a fan, but to each his own. And even with all his scientific analysis and understanding of the game, he's still not getting any further than you and me on the endless levels.

That said, I still feel KR is arguably the best tower defense game series ever made.

[johnnynav]

Originally posted by Coach's Coach:

Speaking of... when will Origins get an Endless Mode!?

No clue. Only took Ironhide 3 years to bring endless mode to Frontiers, so I'm not holding my breath. But I agree, it would be cool to bring it to KRO. I've always found Origins to be ridiculously easy.

[Inardesco]

I was suprised to see the diamond shop in the steam version. So it hasnt been a long time since it has been.

Personally, I've done endless on mobile a couple of time and found something interesting, all on the temple with purple blob

Bruxa without items and managed to get to wave 60.

Then I tried the green dragon dude without items, wave 64.
Then I tried the green dragon dude WITH items (though only the extra cash, gave myself 15 coin sacks worth 7500 to build up with), wave 64.

Basically, if you do not use any of the map wipes, you will always die after wave 60 due to the amount of health the bosses have, they both spawn with 30k health and its simply a matter of time before they reach the end of the map. All the waves you can call in before that are what pushes it on. But their healthpool is too high to succesfully defeat, as far as I've found out.

[Embo s.w.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsL2Rd8HGnI