Any Tips On Tracking Cards During Shuffle?

[Almea]

For me, the issue is that because cards can go off in two different directions, it's hard to tell. You can see that your card is maybe about 2nd from the top or at least see that it's not on top, but when you dont' know which direction it will go after that, it's a bit hard to tell.

All in all, any tips in general?

[Weiglgasse]

I just know that after an hour of playing a card-heavy challenge, my skills have improved significantly.
You already seem to know the whole "follow your card in the stack" thing. You can do it wherever it is.
One additional aspect might be that the cards obviously spread with different speed. If you see your card, on the bottom of the pile, move very fast, it is moving to the edge basically.
This can help sometimes.

Honestly, for 3 shuffle fast games, it'll remain random guessing without the right equipment to make it slower and 2 shuffles.

[1 MOL NH3]

I agree longer the distance, faster speed.

[Almea]

I realized that, but what I mean is...when 4 cards are stacked on top of eachother, you can't see any sort of order that they're in. And when cards seperate from the center, you can only see which of each set of two is on top and which is on bottom. But you can't really tell which cards went in what direction...unless I'm missing something, which I probably am.

[Anthary]

I find it a bit harder to track cards this time from the first game , maybe I am a bit untrained or maybe it really is more difficult. There are some mathematic theories that you can find that relate to what, how and which shuffle is easier, harder. In my opinion you just need to try your best and train your eye. After you get the Ring of concentration (I believe that it was called) and Imperial armor your card shuffles and speed is lowered to the minimum making it easy for practicing (or just repeat the Devil encounter if you find it easier). But yes I agree with you it seems a bit 50-50 if you get a situation like 1X23 where you need to pick card '1' . because after the split you cannot be sure if its not 2X13.

[Weiglgasse]

引用自 Billy Mays：

I realized that, but what I mean is...when 4 cards are stacked on top of eachother, you can't see any sort of order that they're in. And when cards seperate from the center, you can only see which of each set of two is on top and which is on bottom. But you can't really tell which cards went in what direction...unless I'm missing something, which I probably am.

You can, by seeing the way they overlap. Go to a very easy 1 shuffle card gambit (like the first The Devil Appolyon gambit) with the ring that slows the shuffle, and you'll be able to follow any card easily

[TheSHEEEP]

引用自 Weiglgasse：

引用自 Billy Mays：

I realized that, but what I mean is...when 4 cards are stacked on top of eachother, you can't see any sort of order that they're in. And when cards seperate from the center, you can only see which of each set of two is on top and which is on bottom. But you can't really tell which cards went in what direction...unless I'm missing something, which I probably am.

You can, by seeing the way they overlap. Go to a very easy 1 shuffle card gambit (like the first The Devil Appolyon gambit) with the ring that slows the shuffle, and you'll be able to follow any card easily

No, you can not.
Once the cards "merge", only one card is visible, the front one. At this point, it is physically impossible to see any other card. If it was actual 3D and the perspective was different, then yes. But on the screen, it becomes 2D, so there is no chance to keep your eye on the card - except if it happens to be the top card, of course.

And when they split up again, you have four cards moving at the same time. Unfortunately, humans are not chameleons that can track different things moving into different directions at the same time ;)

With some training, you will be able to do a 50-50 estimate (did your card go more to the back of the stack, or more to the front?), but that's about it.
But some cards like the pickpocket one are simply terrible beyond redemption.

[Greig91]

引用自 TheSHEEEP：

引用自 Weiglgasse：

You can, by seeing the way they overlap. Go to a very easy 1 shuffle card gambit (like the first The Devil Appolyon gambit) with the ring that slows the shuffle, and you'll be able to follow any card easily

No, you can not.
Once the cards "merge", only one card is visible, the front one. At this point, it is physically impossible to see any other card. If it was actual 3D and the perspective was different, then yes. But on the screen, it becomes 2D, so there is no chance to keep your eye on the card - except if it happens to be the top card, of course.

And when they split up again, you have four cards moving at the same time. Unfortunately, humans are not chameleons that can track different things moving into different directions at the same time ;)

With some training, you will be able to do a 50-50 estimate (did your card go more to the back of the stack, or more to the front?), but that's about it.
But some cards like the pickpocket one are simply terrible beyond redemption.

You can't see the cards when they overlap but you can see how quickly they are all moving. The faster a card is moving relative to the other cards the further it will end up from it's starting position.

You can track any card throughout the entire gambit because of this, with no need to estimate. Obviously the faster the shuffle and the more shuffles there are, the harder it is to keep track. But you can make it easier with equipment and blessings.

[Anthary]

What TheSHEEEP was trying to say is that even in 1 time shuffle you have situation like 1X23
Where X is top card and 1,2,3 is the sequence of the cards. It is possible to have 2X13 or even 3X12 as you cannot determine the depth of the cards only the order you know them from before. And that is from after they shuffle. The same is applied when they gather in the beginning if you have 1 2 X 3 when they gather you cannot determine at what depth card '3' would be hence leading to the 50-50 that was referred.

[TheSHEEEP]

引用自 Greig91：

You can't see the cards when they overlap but you can see how quickly they are all moving. The faster a card is moving relative to the other cards the further it will end up from it's starting position.

To be honest, I don't see how that is even helping.
What does the knowledge that a card has to travel a longer distance (in the same time) from the stack even give you? That doesn't give you any new information about where the card was before - it was in the stack.

Or do you mean that a card travelling INTO the stack will already be faster if it "knows" that it will end up further away from its initial position?

[Greig91]

引用自 TheSHEEEP：

Or do you mean that a card travelling INTO the stack will already be faster if it "knows" that it will end up further away from its initial position?

Yeah exactly, the card is already moving slower or faster depending on where it will end up before it even enters the stack in the middle of the shuffle. So you need to observe that, and try to work out where it will end up based on that info.

It isn't easy, especially if there are multiple shuffles where you need to think about the speed of the card you're following changing multiple times. If the base shuffle speed of the cards is
high (the whole thing can be faster or slower depending on encounter difficulty) as well as there being multiple shuffles then I often do just have to guess, because I'm not quick enough to keep up. But that is how it works.

[RamboRusina]

Honestly it's practically impossible sometimes to track a specific card at times with fast multi-shuffle. I find it more reliable to track card that is not "yours" depending how the deck initially starts to shuffle + there is helmet that shows another failure card leaving you 50% chance to pick right card.

[Anthary]

引用自 Greig91：

引用自 TheSHEEEP：

Or do you mean that a card travelling INTO the stack will already be faster if it "knows" that it will end up further away from its initial position?

Yeah exactly, the card is already moving slower or faster depending on where it will end up before it even enters the stack in the middle of the shuffle. So you need to observe that, and try to work out where it will end up based on that info.

It isn't easy, especially if there are multiple shuffles where you need to think about the speed of the card you're following changing multiple times. If the base shuffle speed of the cards is
high (the whole thing can be faster or slower depending on encounter difficulty) as well as there being multiple shuffles then I often do just have to guess, because I'm not quick enough to keep up. But that is how it works.

That does not seem to matter in reality as all cards gather in a neutral state with is between 2nd and 3rd card and after the dispersion the left most and right most will be at an increased speed due to them being farther from the center. (same is applied when they gather initially)

What you are saying is that a cards speed gathering and dispersing would lead to position knowledge is more unreliable than actually remembering card sequence. At most it would lead to the same 50-50 chance as in no matter how you look at it if card 1 and 3 would swap places they would move at the same speed because neutral state would be between them (given none of them is top card)

[pendantry]

The assumption in this discussion -- correct me if I'm wrong -- seems to be that if a card enters from one side of the stack it will exit the other side. I do not believe this to be the case. What's to stop a card reversing direction while in the stack, and ending up on the same side it started from?

[Greig91]

引用自 Anthary：

That does not seem to matter in reality as all cards gather in a neutral state with is between 2nd and 3rd card and after the dispersion the left most and right most will be at an increased speed due to them being farther from the center. (same is applied when they gather initially)

What you are saying is that a cards speed gathering and dispersing would lead to position knowledge is more unreliable than actually remembering card sequence. At most it would lead to the same 50-50 chance as in no matter how you look at it if card 1 and 3 would swap places they would move at the same speed because neutral state would be between them (given none of them is top card)

But they don't move at a speed relative to how quickly they'll reach the shuffle, it is based on where they will end up. At least that is how I've always observed it. I could be wrong but if so I've been extremely lucky, because I nail it pretty much every time on the slower shuffles now.

I'll try to make an example. We'll keep it at one shuffle for simplicity. If it starts like this..

[1] [2] [3] [4]

And we'll say card 1 is going to end up in card 4's position, and card 4 is going to end up in card 3's position. So they'll end up here (2 and 3 could be reversed but ignore them)..

[3] [2] [4] [1]

Obviously the stack, the neutral point, takes place right in the middle. So cards 1 and 4 are travelling exactly the same distance to reach the stack. However because card 4 is only ending up one space from its starting point it will still move much slower than card 1 which is ending up three spaces away from its starting point, throughout the entire shuffle.

As I say, I might be wrong, but I'm like 99% sure I'm not lol. It just works out far too often, the only times I seem to fail are when I lose track of my card.

@Pendantry Yeah they can definitely reverse direction.

[pendantry]

引用自 Greig91：

@Pendantry Yeah they can definitely reverse direction.

If that's the case... how do you spot that happening? (Seems to me that you can't.)