Combat is still kind of clunky

[Ashcarr]

For trying to be an Arkham combat clone, HoF2 sadly still suffers the same fate as HoF1. The flow of combat isn't smooth by any definition of the term. I originally wrote off HoF as being a unique and exciting concept only held back in the combat department. It's a shame to see that it was never improved upon, especially as so many games have been released with a similar combat style that all do it much better.

I still have yet to continue diving into the changes between HoF and HoF2, but so far it feels like this really could have just been an add-on to the first game.

[Lord Of Dorkness]

Haven't played that much so far, so I don't want to comment too much on the combat system yet.

The new dodge does genuinly seem to be hot garbage, though, and I'm amazed it got through testing. Way too short ranged and slow for how hectic the fights are.

Once or twice per fight it won't even work against unblockable attacks. By the time the red stops flashing and you've been smacked, you've barely started moving.

So... Yeah. Not a deal breaker or anything, the game at large seems a vast improvement... but it's definatly making me wait on a few more patches before I'll start to play in earnest.

[Tinman]

Originally posted by Lord Of Dorkness:

Haven't played that much so far, so I don't want to comment too much on the combat system yet.

The new dodge does genuinly seem to be hot garbage, though, and I'm amazed it got through testing. Way too short ranged and slow for how hectic the fights are.

Once or twice per fight it won't even work against unblockable attacks. By the time the red stops flashing and you've been smacked, you've barely started moving.

So... Yeah. Not a deal breaker or anything, the game at large seems a vast improvement... but it's definatly making me wait on a few more patches before I'll start to play in earnest.

Later this combat is a nightmare. You'll see...

[lyravega]

This was going to be a short post, but turned out to be a wall of text. Sorry for my grammar & sentences that make no sense.

On HoF I found the combat clunky. But given the small budged compared to other "Arkham Brawler" type of games, I overlooked the flaws. One thing really annoyed me in its combat was enemies locking on you even when you dodged, still resulting in damage taken. On HoF II, I thought on the sequel it'd be smoothed out, but that didn't happen. And with the new mechanics and stuff, it got even more clunky, and more inconsistent.

In "Arkham Brawler" games, typically there are 2 attacks that the enemies use; a normal attack, and a heavy attack. Arkham City had one new one, rapid "yellow" attacks, but in general, there are just 2 types. In order to avoid damage from normal attacks, you have 3 options; dodge, counter, interrupt (by hitting first), and to avoid damage from heavy attacks, you only had one option; dodge.

Simple formula, but Arkham games had another layer on top of this simple combat system to make it a smooth experience; the "Mob AI". Only a select number of enemies are allowed to attack the player, and whenever the player is doing a special move (like a finisher), nobody is allowed to attack the player, and those in the middle of an attack stand down till the player is done.

Skipping HoF, lets look at HoF II. "Mob AI" is somewhat there, only a few are allowed to attack. But if you are doing a special move, the other enemies don't stand down. For example, if an enemy is attacking you, and you start to do a finisher, the attacking enemy will still hit you, however you won't take any damage (I think this is intentional). But if you finish your animation first, then the enemy hits you, you'll take damage. This grinds my gears.

Dodging, another point. I don't know how many times I have dodged, yet still got hit. In Arkham games, Batman dodges in a specific way that either also interrupts the enemy or gets him out of reach very quickly. Maybe it even provides some "iFrames" to make it a smoother experience, don't know. In contrast, in any other "Arkham Brawler" game, what I experience(d) is, as dodging is a roll, usually you end up still getting hit after dodging/rolling away. And in HoF II, the number of times I try to dodge away from an attack and still get hit is too high, to a degree that it feels punishment for me for trying to dodge.

And now, the inconsistency part. Why did I say inconsistent? It's because the game seems to have two types of attacks, yet there is another one. Hit an enemy enough times, and it'll lash back at you, with what looks like a normal attack. But unlike other normal attacks, this attack cannot be interrupted by hitting the target first, these need to be countered, and trying to dodge away from these attacks usually end up you still getting hit. In my opinion, these attacks should've used a different color, because it isn't a normal attack exactly, as hitting them before they hit you doesn't interrupt the attack.

There are more inconsistencies too. Some enemies are on guard, so you need to bash them first, which also causes a mini-stun. However, if they are doing an attack, your bash does nothing. A second before, it was causing a mini-stun, now it does nothing...

And I have some before-combat problems too, for example, I don't know what I'm going to face exactly. On first game, the monster cards were specific and were shown properly. How many I am going to face and so on weren't a question. The necessary information was provided clearly. On this one, everything is stacked on top of each other and many cards don't have any numbers on them.

Anyway, long story short, what makes Arkham games special for me is the smooth gameplay. If I'm getting hit unfairly or due to inconsistencies, it just gets me mad. Mad Max got me mad, HoF I got me mad, and now this one is getting me mad. I have a love-hate relationship with the game, I'm enjoying it for 20-30mins, then ragequiting due to one combat, after cooling down I relaunch the game and experience the same stuff... I'm fully aware of the team sizes, available funds and such, but the things I've mentioned (and there is more) has nothing to do with those two.



If you want some suggestions related to combat, more specificly the parts I whine about, think about those:

- Provide invulnerability against normal attacks while dodging. Keyword here being "against normal attacks"; heavy attacks are slow enough for you to dodge away safely in my opinion. Such a change will make dodge consistent against normal attacks.

- As I've said, if you hit an enemy enough times, some of them lash back at you with what looks like a normal attack but you cannot interrupt it by hitting the enemy first, you have to counter those. So, for those counter-attacks, either make them interruptable, or use a different color for those attacks. The former choice will destroy the purpose of those attacks, and allow you to keep mashing the attack button till they are dead with no counter in-between. The latter choice would be better because of this, paint the normal counter-attacks different color but not the normal attack color. I use blue/red colors for attacks, maybe yellow?

- No idea for bashing. The primary purpose of the bash is to break enemy blocks (or armor), but bash having a mini-stun attached to it results in inconsistency when it doesn't do that. Maybe make mini-stun affect only the enemies with no block capability, so when it doesn't stun them, you won't be surprised? I don't know. This, and the above are directly related to enemy counter-attacks, both cannot be interrupted by attacking or bashing. While I can suggest something for the above, I can't think of anything for this one.



I like the new additions to the combat, I mean don't think that I haven't noticed them and just focused on the bad, but seeing some of the same issues from the first game still persisting in the second one, while the new features bringing its own fair share to the table is a bit disappointing. My only wish is that in time combat will be smoothed out, and we'll get to enjoy more DLCs, maybe even a third game. As I've said, what I have here is a love-hate relationship with this game.

[skin2yard]

Originally posted by Lord Of Dorkness:

Haven't played that much so far, so I don't want to comment too much on the combat system yet.

The new dodge does genuinly seem to be hot garbage, though, and I'm amazed it got through testing. Way too short ranged and slow for how hectic the fights are.

Once or twice per fight it won't even work against unblockable attacks. By the time the red stops flashing and you've been smacked, you've barely started moving.

So... Yeah. Not a deal breaker or anything, the game at large seems a vast improvement... but it's definatly making me wait on a few more patches before I'll start to play in earnest.

i promise, it is better than hof1, you can doge pretty much everything, you just cant button mash, timing is king, if you mah buttons and you dont concentrate on getting a rythm , blows will suprise you, , but if you get the rythm of the game and enemies, it will feel alot better and more engaging than hof 1

[skin2yard]

here are a few tips for all te button mashers or people who have problems dodging attacks:

first, if you are easily lost into mashing the attack button, try to mash the dodge button from time to time, chances are you will evade at least a couple of blows untill you get your rythmj

second, dont button mash the same enemy, know yur suroundings, if you see a mob, go away from the mob and change the target to an enemie who is outside the mb, that way you can be sure you wont get surprised by a sudden blow, if an enemie starts getting near to you, you know you should be on alert, do a couple of dodges

third, take out the ranged units first if you can

and the last point would be, stop button mashing and start concentrating on the alert icons, what ever move an opponent does, you get alerted to it, you just have to concentrate on that and get your rythm for the game i8nstead of button mashing

[Rampage]

yeah the only reason for me to try this game is if it improved the combat from the first game else its just pointless to make a sequal if you arent going to do anything to improve your weak points.

[Amelor]

Question to the Devs, Can you guys make an alternative for "Move the stick furiously to escape the bolas" mechanic? It is fine on M&K, but on gamepad its awful. It was infuriating in a bad way in the first game, and its still here. I dont want to break my controller just because of clunky game mechanic. I feel that my left stick on a gamepad is getting loose after each "escape the bolas" encounter.

[Zorlond]

Originally posted by morgan:

We have some fixes coming for M&K. We did a dumb thing (which we didn't notice, cos we're used to it) in that holding down the space bar makes you run. That means if you tap the spacebar for more than a second, it doesn't dodge because you're setting up to run. We've got a fix coming for that.

We've also found some places where, if you're moving diagonally, the keyboard can drop input on the parry. We're working on that right now as well. We should be able to improve your situation a lot over the next few days, I hope.

This neatly explains why I've been having so much trouble with the combat on M&K. It just seemed so unresponsive to the point of rediculousness. And this is after banging my head against the King of Scales in the first game repeatedly to try to finish the first game before stepping up to the second. Here's hoping the coming fixes work.

[blob]

Originally posted by lyravega:

There are more inconsistencies too. Some enemies are on guard, so you need to bash them first, which also causes a mini-stun. However, if they are doing an attack, your bash does nothing. A second before, it was causing a mini-stun, now it does nothing...

^ That.

Make bashing on shield enemies more consistent but less powerful: it interrupts them even if they started an attack but dont make them fully stun. Instead they could just have their guard down for a bit but still move around.

Or, maybe its an animation problem. Those enemies attack animation has a lot of prep time sometimes, make them still stunnable with bash during the first half of their attack but not when they are actually swinging because its too late then. I m specifically thinking of the Phalanx who draw their weapon back with their guard up for a while before striking. it REALLY looks like you can still bash them but instead your hit doesnt stops them at all and you instantly get hit back. Very frustrating.

Originally posted by lyravega:

And I have some before-combat problems too, for example, I don't know what I'm going to face exactly. On first game, the monster cards were specific and were shown properly. How many I am going to face and so on weren't a question. The necessary information was provided clearly. On this one, everything is stacked on top of each other and many cards don't have any numbers on them.

That s a good one too. Hopefully easier to fix.

[DaetherX]

Originally posted by Amelor:

Question to the Devs, Can you guys make an alternative for "Move the stick furiously to escape the bolas" mechanic? It is fine on M&K, but on gamepad its awful. It was infuriating in a bad way in the first game, and its still here. I dont want to break my controller just because of clunky game mechanic. I feel that my left stick on a gamepad is getting loose after each "escape the bolas" encounter.

THIS! I'd love if they allowed alternating LB/RB (the top shoulder buttons) to get out also. That would be easiest for my hands to perform without completely switching how I'm holding the controller.

And I agree with everything lyravega said.

The two things that stand out for me to mention are:
I can't count the number of times I've gotten hit dodge rolling away from counterable attacks because they lock on or something, and maybe a couple times for the rage attacks but I think that has to do with the dodge/run being on the same button they said they were fixing.

In HoF1 the bash was actually usefull in every fight because you could interupt an enemy attack with it by knocking them off balance. HoF2 the enemy will do an ultra-short step back animation from being pushed, but attacks the very millisecond the last frame of it ends.

[DaetherX]

Was just playing, and I pressed counter while the green symbol was still above the enemies heads... and it failed a bunch of times. The acceptable press time is too short as it's shorter than the already short time the symbol is on screen. I think the time the symbol is on screen is in the "just right" range, it just needs to accept button press for all that time instead of ignoring input early.

[Tinker]

Originally posted by DaetherX:

Was just playing, and I pressed counter while the green symbol was still above the enemies heads... and it failed a bunch of times. The acceptable press time is too short as it's shorter than the already short time the symbol is on screen. I think the time the symbol is on screen is in the "just right" range, it just needs to accept button press for all that time instead of ignoring input early.

Yes, I think this is one of my major issues.

If the game shows the symbol that indicates you can counter or block.... you should be able to counter or block while said symbol is on the screen. The very frame you no longer can? It should no longer be displayed.

I would also go so far as to say blocking / countering should take priority over every other animation except dodging.

[Taavi]

Originally posted by blob:

I actually find the combat more clunky in HOF2 than in the first one.
-Its weird, it seems way slower to react and pressing Y for a counter often reacts too late ( especially against thieves) and the hero still gets hit even if it pressed it when it was way still visible. Never had this in HOF1, auto interrupt for counters was immediate and smooth.
-Getting stuck and hit when rolling away into your own companion is also infuriating!
-Bashing seems weirdly inconsistent with enemies like the phalanx who wont get interrupted if you bash them if they barely started their attack animation.

Yeah I sort of feel this way too. I'm not entirely sure if it's on my end for getting old, or if the game could benefit from about a fraction of a second of extra reaction time?

[morgan]

"If the game shows the symbol that indicates you can counter or block.... you should be able to counter or block while said symbol is on the screen. The very frame you no longer can? It should no longer be displayed.

I would also go so far as to say blocking / countering should take priority over every other animation except dodging."

Both of these *should* be true, and certainly are true in some setups. It's weird - can you tell us a little more about what your config is?

[Pocket Dog]

Haven't read all of the posts yet, so I'm not aware of how much this has been touched upon (or at all), but the window with which to block an attack needs to be a little longer. This is especially true when fighting thieves, who can just about up and attack you without warning, while you're in the middle of a combo. They respond so quickly that it's difficult to get a block in. When the red symbol appears, informing us that we need to dodge, there's usually more than enough time to move (often one can even get an attack in before the dodge, there's so much time). Blocking, on the other hand, is the opposite - there's often too little time to react. Not only does this make the combat a bit frustrating when you get into chapters like the Hierophant, where you're positioned to take on a dozen or more enemies at a time, but it helps to take away from the flow of the combat, which is something the Arkham games - an obvious inspiration - had quite a bit of.