Am I the only one that hopes Super Saiyan Blue and up is never implimented for Saiyan CaCs?

[ForteDS]

Yes, I understand that this is a big part of Super now, but I have a few issues with it. First off, the Saiyans already have three times as many unique race transformations than any other race combined; I think my female Saiyan will have enough transformation toys to play with. I know that is the nature of Dragonball Z/Super at this point, but lets think of it this way...

In the final DLC for Xenoverse 1, Unlocked Potential became a thing, being the only Ultimate Transformation available to everyone. Yes, Super Saiyan Blue and even Rose could be included, but should the developers release DLC skills for money that your favorite non-Saiyan patroller can't even use? Sure, there would be other things in the pack, but this would be the first race exclusive piece in one of these, and I prefer they don't go down that route unless they can offer something equal to the other races, but what equates to a transformation besides another transformation?

Next, we have the problem of Super still going on. Just last year we were oogling at Super Saiyan Blue and peeved that Super Saiyan 3 wasn't included in Xenoverse 1, now we are pondering the possibilities of Super Saiyan Rose, and I don't have a clue what is happening to Trunks as of the time of this post, but what about beyond that? What about in three months when Goku goes Super Saiyan Emerald for the first time? Then, what about this time next year when Vegeta hits Super Saiyan Violet? How about the finale when everyone gathers around Goku and takes on a different Super Saiyan, pours their hearts like in Battle of Gods singing Kumbaya and forms Super Saiyan Rainbow? (I may have gotten out of hand there at the end, but I'm getting the impression that the old Mass Effect 3 Infinite Ending Generator color generator gag from 2012 may apply to Super Saiyan here before the end.) Do we just add in all of these as well, trying to figure out how to make a few more changes to how this variant of Super Saiyan differs from the rest, while still maintaining the other race's unique transformation abilities? What if I want the effects of Super Saiyan Rose, but I don't like the red hair on my character? Isn't this a simmilar reason why our hair won't spike to begin with?

To wrap it all up, I think the developers should not push for further Saiyan transformations. They should just stick to letting us sport the golden hair that we all wished we could have at one point in our lives. Let Goku's and Vegeta's hair be Akira Toriyama's coloring book all he wants, and let our CaCs escape with some dignity. All our CaCs could fight the Super enemies through the same method as our Humans and Namekians ever had a chance against Kid Buu to begin with: Through a bit of Narrative Dissonance.

Sorry for the long rant. I just see a lot of topics asking if SSJB is in the game, or how cool it would be if it was added to the game, but I just think there are good, valid reasons in place in this game to why it shouldn't be included, and I wanted to voice them.

[Iopetus]

Ralen Stargrazer eredeti hozzászólása:

SSJ3 is literally just giving everybody Goku's SSJ3 hair. As long as I can go SSJ4, I'm really not that picky. Sure, I'd prefer to have as many customization options as possible. However, I'd also be fine with a simple texture swap of Goku and Vegeta's SSJ4 forms.

If I recall, there was a rather well made mod for Xenoverse 1 using re-skinned costume pieces along with a hairstyle mod that gave your character a Super Saiyan 4 appearance. I don't have the link to the video on hand at the moment, but I remember it being fairly impressive.

If nothing else, I'd wager that the modding community will do the same for Xenoverse 2.

[ForteDS]

Ralen Stargrazer eredeti hozzászólása:

ForteDS eredeti hozzászólása:

...

SSJ3 is literally just giving everybody Goku's SSJ3 hair. As long as I can go SSJ4, I'm really not that picky. Sure, I'd prefer to have as many customization options as possible. However, I'd also be fine with a simple texture swap of Goku and Vegeta's SSJ4 forms.

The problem with Buu is he doesn't really transform. He just absorbs. Perhaps that kind of system would make sense if fusions were to be implemented into the game.

LSSJ is a special form. I prefer only Broly having it as it's one of those unique things that shouldn't be a dime a dozen in my opinion.

Saiyans have always had the most transformations, so that's not really the issue. It's a matter of balancing that's the primary concern. I think it's inevitable that SSJ4 and SSJB, at least, will be transformations in DBXV3. It's possible maybe even SSJG, although that form is really unnecessary.

Let me put it another way. Our Saiyans don't have tails. It's why they don't become Great Apes, even though now we have Great Namekians in the game now and could totally do it. Yeah, there are the Saiyan armors that have a tail wrapped around, but those are cosmetic, and the whole tail thing was pretty well dropped after the Saiyan saga. Goku never grew one back after puberty, Gohan didn't grow one back, Vegeta didn't grow one back, Trunks and Goten apparently never had one, and GT didn't actually happen to begin with, making it basicly as canon as Turles and Broly are. Yeah, GT happens in the game, sure, but it isn't really of the universe that our characters seem to hail from.

As for LSSJ, I agree it shouldn't be a dime a dozen, but that is also what I think about SSJB. It's something that basicly obsoleted SSJ2 and 3, and required an apprentaceship with the God of Destruction to obtain.

With the Buus and the Frieza race, all I'm saying is that there were other ways to do this. Yes, I'm also aware that SSJ3 just uses Goku's hair, but that A) Doesn't change your whole character, from the height and weight to what the character is wearing, and B) There is only one and two halves of a Super Saiyan 3 in all of Dragonball Z, mostly because the form is considered a bad idea if the fight might last for more than a minute, and they both pretty much have exactly the same hair.

[Iopetus]

ForteDS eredeti hozzászólása:

Let me put it another way. Our Saiyans don't have tails.

This is one of the few aspects of character customization that I'm actually disappointed with. If nothing else, the option should exist to give your Saiyan a tail during character creation. Or at the very least, be an equippable accessory item.

A Saiyan's tail is an integral part of their identity, and whether or not our characters are ever able to transform into an Oozaru, they absolutely should at least have a tail if we so desire.

[Ralen]

ForteDS eredeti hozzászólása:

...

GT is canon. No, you don't have any evidence to prove that it is not (any argument you make I can and will refute). Having tails is a non-issue as Dimps could easily implement those in DBXV3.

Not exactly. LSSJ is absolutely unique and is genetic. Anyone can become a SSJG or SSJB as long as they learn to harness god ki and have unlocked SSJ1.

As Iopetus already pointed out, there are player mods that do a fairly decent job of implementing in a SSJ4 transformation.

[ForteDS]

Ralen Stargrazer eredeti hozzászólása:

ForteDS eredeti hozzászólása:

...

GT is canon. No, you don't have any evidence to prove that it is not (any argument you make I can and will refute). Having tails is a non-issue as Dimps could easily implement those in DBXV3.

Not exactly. LSSJ is absolutely unique and is genetic. Anyone can become a SSJG or SSJB as long as they learn to harness god ki and have unlocked SSJ1.

As Iopetus already pointed out, there are player mods that do a fairly decent job of implementing in a SSJ4 transformation.

So, why are Pilaf and Mai old and haggared at the very beginning of GT when they are toddlers in Super? Why doesn't Goku use God Ki in GT with his base Super Saiyan form, instead of powering up to what he knows is an obsolete SSJ3 form that his younger body couldn't handle? Why doesn't Goku try using God Ki in SSJ4 form, especially in light that Goku feels just as strongly against Fusion as Vegeta does? Don't you think Goku might give that old trick a quick go, just to see if it might work against, say Omega Shenron? The existance of Super in between Z and GT really raises some difficult questions. Yeah, GT could happen in some alternate timeline, like how Turles and Slug got pulled out to wreak havoc in this game, but the prime timeline favors Super over GT, and it's the Super rules that they seem interested in persuing.

As for the player mods, we are talking about talented and passionate individuals that could spend the better part of a year on the one aspect. I'm sure there is someone out there that could give the Frieza race a 2nd, 3rd, and Final form to transform into if the game mechanics would allow it for that race. The question is if this developer would do it. I'm sorry, I don't care what Dragon Ball Heroes did, I don't find the Buus' transformation into Kid Buu acceptable, especially if they didn't feel the need to go the whole way and make the form the original pink form regardless of your Buu's color.

As for LSSJ being genetic, I don't think that is right either. Broly was born abnormally strong with a power level of 10k, making him half as strong as the average Frieza Force member at birth, then after Vegeta's destruction, we don't really know what happened. I can only guess that he got really mad at one point, and combined with him going off the deep end from Goku's crying next to him, his almost sucessful assassination attempt at birth, and the planet blowing up all sewing into his mind at his earliest moments, his anger eventually made a different kind of Super Saiyan form materialize. Anyone could probably obtain it, or at least as far as going Super Saiyan is, just it requires a rather delicate mindset to get to it. Probably could impliment it, and they might as well if they are going to add SSJ4 and SSJB.

[Iopetus]

As far as I'm aware, the main argument against GT being non-canon is that it's an anime only series. There was no manga, nor was the show written or designed in any part by Toriyama. He may have contributed a few character designs, but that was it from what I understand.

[ForteDS]

What I'm getting at is that Super, which very much is Toriyama's work, creates some glaring contradictions with the story of GT. I don't know what the exact deal is with GT, wether it be the adventures of one of the other 11 universe's Goku after Buu, a seperate timeline, or if it's just not canon at all, but what I do know is that I see a lot of contradictions between Super and GT that the "GT is canon" camp has to sort out, and that the fans of Dragonball in general are a lot more invested and passionate about the actual story than Akira Toriyama himself.

[Ralen]

ForteDS eredeti hozzászólása:

...

Emperor Pilaf and gang used the dragon balls, again, to restore their original ages. If you remember, they accidentally made themselves younger to start.

Goku was cursed by the black star dragon balls. His smaller body prevents him from generating large amounts of ki. This is why it's pointless for him to go beyond SSJ1 (he could only maintain SSJ3 for a few seconds before getting his tail back). This is also why he is unable to use god ki due to the curse.

SSJ4, as Old Kai states, is the "ultimate super saiyan transformation." While it may not harness god ki, it's powerful enough to break the curse of the black star dragon balls. It's quite possible that SSJ4 is actually more powerful than SSJG or SSJB, even if it's not a god transformation. That would explain why Goku chooses not to use it because it wouldn't actually help. LSSJ, as an example, has an infinite power level as the longer Broly sustains it the more powerful he becomes. LSSJ is obviously not a god transformation, yet Broly could arguably be stronger than anybody if he was able to maintain the transformation long enough.

Super is a new anime. Of course Dimps is going to pursue it and ride its coat tails. As I've already pointed out, nothing in Super outright contradicts GT.

The point is if modders can easily put together a functional SSJ4 transformation, so can Dimps. Again, Frieza's forms aren't transformations. They are locks on his power, which is probably why Dimps didn't incorporate them as transformations. Golden Form is the only actual transformation Frieza has as his final form is actually his real base form. I'm not sure where Dragon Ball Heroes comes into this discussion. The lore surrounding the Majin race comes from Dragon Ball Online, in which Akira Toriyama wrote.

LSSJ is genetic. Vegeta even explained this. Every blue moon a Saiyan is born that is abnormaly powerful. Broly is that Saiyan, and unlike everybody else, he exclusively is capable of becoming a LSSJ. It is a transformation that one is born with and there is no other way to obtain it.

[Ralen]

Iopetus eredeti hozzászólása:

As far as I'm aware, the main argument against GT being non-canon is that it's an anime only series. There was no manga, nor was the show written or designed in any part by Toriyama. He may have contributed a few character designs, but that was it from what I understand.

Toriyama came up with the title of the show and he drew all of the main character designs as well as created most of the environment designs for the first saga of the series. He just didn't have any input with regard to the actual story, but he very much was the foundational force of the actual look and tone of the series.

[Ralen]

ForteDS eredeti hozzászólása:

...

Except Super is not Toriyama's work. All Toriyama has contributed to Super is a very basic outline and he has drawn character designs the same way he did for GT.

The actual story for Super is being written by Toyotaro:

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Ball_Super_(manga)

Toriyama just overseas what Toyotaro does and approves.

TOEI also has its own writers for Super, which is why the anime and manga deviate in some respects. In fact, Toriyama actually has even expressed dislike with the Super anime with regard to the animation and even how TOEI approaches the story.

So in reality, Toriyama isn't that much more involved in Super than he was with GT. Toriyama hasn't been the creative force behind Dragon Ball since DBZ ended. He's not interested in going back into that role.

[kyse2]

ok no way im reading all that wtf lol

[Slam Moment]

Thank you. Thank you so much for that post, THIS is what I, and a lot of the sensible XV fans have been saying since the speculation has even started!

[ForteDS]

Ralen Stargrazer eredeti hozzászólása:

ForteDS eredeti hozzászólása:

...

Emperor Pilaf and gang used the dragon balls, again, to restore their original ages. If you remember, they accidentally made themselves younger to start.

Goku was cursed by the black star dragon balls. His smaller body prevents him from generating large amounts of ki. This is why it's pointless for him to go beyond SSJ1 (he could only maintain SSJ3 for a few seconds before getting his tail back). This is also why he is unable to use god ki due to the curse.

SSJ4, as Old Kai states, is the "ultimate super saiyan transformation." While it may not harness god ki, it's powerful enough to break the curse of the black star dragon balls. It's quite possible that SSJ4 is actually more powerful than SSJG or SSJB, even if it's not a god transformation. That would explain why Goku chooses not to use it because it wouldn't actually help. LSSJ, as an example, has an infinite power level as the longer Broly sustains it the more powerful he becomes. LSSJ is obviously not a god transformation, yet Broly could arguably be stronger than anybody if he was able to maintain the transformation long enough.

Super is a new anime. Of course Dimps is going to pursue it and ride its coat tails. As I've already pointed out, nothing in Super outright contradicts GT.

The point is if modders can easily put together a functional SSJ4 transformation, so can Dimps. Again, Frieza's forms aren't transformations. They are locks on his power, which is probably why Dimps didn't incorporate them as transformations. Golden Form is the only actual transformation Frieza has as his final form is actually his real base form. I'm not sure where Dragon Ball Heroes comes into this discussion. The lore surrounding the Majin race comes from Dragon Ball Online, in which Akira Toriyama wrote.

LSSJ is genetic. Vegeta even explained this. Every blue moon a Saiyan is born that is abnormaly powerful. Broly is that Saiyan, and unlike everybody else, he exclusively is capable of becoming a LSSJ. It is a transformation that one is born with and there is no other way to obtain it.

Alright then, so, which Shadow Dragon spawned from Pilaf's wish to make him younger, then which Shadow Dragon spawned to make him older again? How about Frieza's Resurrection? Giving the series the benefit of the doubt that the wish to know about the Super Saiyan God isn't a big deal, there is a dragon for just about every wish done in Dragonball and Dragonball Z, then it was the wish to undo the whole dead risen thing that caused them to overflow. Super's wishes are mysteriously absent.

Goku's curse keeps him from building up enough Ki to go Super Saiyan 3, but God Ki is like a different kind of Ki. Yeah, he can't hold that much of it, but that shouldn't affect what kind of Ki it is.

For Super Saiyan 4... You know, the Fusion dance is risky, they don't like doing it, and hey, they have this God Ki trick to try in conjuncture with SSJ4. For Super and GT to exist together, that means that Goku decided SSJB and Kaioken together was worth a shot to try to win a tournament than to try going SSJB4, and that wouldn't involve his body looking like it was rejecting his own skeleton.

As for all the Broly stuff, I don't even want to argue it anymore. I don't want more Saiyan transformations is the point I originally made, and I'm kind of tired arguing why they might as well if Dimps opens the flood gates with SSJ4 and Blue.

[Ralen]

ForteDS eredeti hozzászólása:

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I haven't seen Super (just BoG and RoF films) so I can't comment on those particular wishes, but aren't they using different dragon balls? Aren't they called super dragon balls? I do think the context of the wish, with regard to Shenron, had to be something extraordinary to morph into a shadow dragon.

God ki is a different form of ki, but it requires condensing all of your energy in order to harness it. My argument is that Goku's child body is physically not capable of using God ki.

Again, you are assuming SSJG and SSJB are stronger than SSJ4. We do not know. Just because they are god transformations does not actually mean they are stronger. There may have been no benefit for Goku to even use God ki against his opponents. They just use a different kind of ki. Again, LSSJ is actually the most powerful transformation as it has no limit.

My point is you are fighting a losing battle. Dragon Ball is all about Saiyans. Look at Super, for crying out loud. It's all about Goku and Vegeta. I'm just saying to prepare yourself for at least SSJ4 and SSJB because they are coming. Super Saiyan is literally one of the pillars of the Dragon Ball universe. To not expect them all to be implemented eventually is fooling yourself.

[ForteDS]

Ralen Stargrazer eredeti hozzászólása:

ForteDS eredeti hozzászólása:

...

I haven't seen Super (just BoG and RoF films) so I can't comment on those particular wishes, but aren't they using different dragon balls? Aren't they called super dragon balls? I do think the context of the wish, with regard to Shenron, had to be something extraordinary to morph into a shadow dragon.

God ki is a different form of ki, but it requires condensing all of your energy in order to harness it. My argument is that Goku's child body is physically not capable of using God ki.

Again, you are assuming SSJG and SSJB are stronger than SSJ4. We do not know. Just because they are god transformations does not actually mean they are stronger. They just use a different kind of ki. Again, LSSJ is actually the most powerful transformation as it has no limit.

My point is you are fighting a losing battle. Dragon Ball is all about Saiyans. Look at Super, for crying out loud. It's all about Goku and Vegeta. I'm just saying to prepare yourself for at least SSJ4 and SSJB because they are coming. Super Saiyan is literally one of the pillars of the Dragon Ball universe. To not expect them all to be implemented eventually is fooling yourself.

To answer your question, yes, there are super dragon balls, but the wishes I am talking about had to be used on Earth's Dragon Balls. Pilaf wouldn't have the means to use the super dragon balls for his youth/restoring his own age, and the whole reason why the Frieza Force went to Earth to use those dragon balls is because they couldn't find Namek to save their emperor's life literally. I'm not sure why you are insisting that there is nothing in Dragonball Super that could possibly contradict with GT when you are now saying that you haven't even seen Super now, but that seems... Ill advised. Another contradiction is that the Supreme Kai and Kabito are still fused together in GT, but they had a wish granted on Namek to be split apart again. Yeah, you COULD tell me that they fused again for no particular reason, but the point I'm making is that Super is being made with no regard to the non canon story of GT. It might have some meaning to Xenoverse as the also non canon Tree of Might movie did, but GT is as canon as Tree of Might is in general.

I'm not assuming anything, I'm just saying that the trick to becoming SSJB is to go SSJ, but do it with God Ki. In Super, they don't even need to do it before transforming, there is an instance of Vegeta starting in SSJ, then moving up to SSJB. Goku could literally go SSJ4 first, then apply the God Ki. Even if he doesn't, I'm sure Vegeta would happily do it in his fight with Omega Shenron to preserve his own dignity and not do the fusion dance with Goku.

As for Broly, he does have a limit, actually. His ki might continue to build indefinately, but his body can only take so much. When Vegeta talked about the last Legendary Super Saiyan, he talked about how eventually his own power exploded, killing him and the planet he was on. In the first Broly movie, he eventually releases his overbuilt ki, destroying various random parts of the planet. So yeah, Broly in theory can keep getting stronger and stronger, but he really can't hold onto it.

You have no point because unlike Dragonball as a whole, Dragonball Xenoverse ISN'T just about the Saiyans. We have Earthlings able to take on Buu, Namekians that never assimilated each other taking on Frieza, the Frieza race able to smack around Beerus as well as Goku could in SSG form, and the only reason why SSJB isn't already an option for CaCs is because Dimps doesn't know how to impliment the SSJs we have in Z, these new forms, and still keep everything balanced. It's like this now, and it will be like this still in two years when Xenoverse 3 comes out and there are no new developments for the humans and other races.