krillin vs goku. why is gap so massive?

[Rolando Zolo]

first off this topic is not about SSJ or its forms. my question is simple. goku and krillin have both grown up with nearly identical training and situations. yet the power gap between 2 as adults is MASSIVE!

as kids they were nearly dead equal but obv goku had the minor advantage in plot lines. goku came back from kami and had some new powers but even then he was on par with tein and rest of human Z fighters with only minor advantages. come the radditz saga he has not trained hard in that time with chichi yet its implied krillin never slacked off once.
krillin also got to do training with kami waiting for saiyans and got way more powerful, inventing the destructo disk technic in process.
in death krillin spent time on king kais planet in namek saga i believe (please correct me if i am remembering wrong) the time he spent seemed to be logner than goku did with the dragon balls cool down.

it seems since goku got SSJ and shot up power ranks his base form which should be unchanged has gotten hugely more pwoerful than krillin or any none saiyan. is this ever explained in canon?
cause to me it seems SSJ forms are pointless if his base is increasing at such a rapid rate.

[Rolando Zolo]

Първоначално публикувано от Takii:

Well its also stated by vegeta that goku has experience in battle that vegeta doesn't have. That he maybe a moron but hes a genius when it comes to combat. Yes vegeta is a thinker, where as goku is a lot more go with the flow which i think is what helped him master UI like he did. Notice not only where people shocked that he could attain the form that he ended up mastering it soon after. I also believe that UI isnt something that one can just enter into at will, i believe its something that only happens during extreme stress. While it seems that vegeta's training is a lot more intense then goku, it also appears that goku just seems to grow a lot better and easier in combat then vegeta does. He seems to have the ability to adapt and overcome on a scale far greater then any other of his race. It also seems at least to me that while vegetas training is insane, it appears that most of gokus growth is based on him fighting enemies that far surpass him at the time. The saying used to be "a saiyan always surpasses his limits" but when super came along toriyama quickly changed it to "a saiyan has no limits" I think the reason why vegeta said that is because he knows that even though he has trained all of his life in a very intense manner that goku is always 1 or 2 steps ahead because of gokus impressive growth potential as well as his experience of always fighting enemies that far outmatched him. Again this is just my opinion based on the information that i and everyone else has been given. While the dragonball wiki page maybe mostly fan based a lot of the information does seem to be legitimate given the information provided in the show, manga, and authors of both.

I will admit i do like having a good conversation with you Hellfire and MekaDovah both, lol this may sound kinda dumb but you two are probably some of the friendlist people ive met on steam. I apperciate the politeness and opinions you both have as it has given me other ways to think about the discussion topic in ways i probably never would have.

my pleasure, fun talking with you also.

also for goku vs vegeta i personally go on theory goku was obv born weaker but with a higher latent pool to draw on and is blessed by good fortune that he is just naturally a good warrior with minimal effort. vegeta on other hand was born assumign his power was X and until he learned he could improve did not train much. once he learned limits are meaningless he has trained none stop as hard as he can all the time.

it is also to me why he was first to approach Whis after going god as he knew he could become better.

[Phil]

Първоначално публикувано от Hellfire:

first off this topic is not about SSJ or its forms. my question is simple. goku and krillin have both grown up with nearly identical training and situations. yet the power gap between 2 as adults is MASSIVE!

as kids they were nearly dead equal but obv goku had the minor advantage in plot lines. goku came back from kami and had some new powers but even then he was on par with tein and rest of human Z fighters with only minor advantages. come the radditz saga he has not trained hard in that time with chichi yet its implied krillin never slacked off once.
krillin also got to do training with kami waiting for saiyans and got way more powerful, inventing the destructo disk technic in process.
in death krillin spent time on king kais planet in namek saga i believe (please correct me if i am remembering wrong) the time he spent seemed to be logner than goku did with the dragon balls cool down.

it seems since goku got SSJ and shot up power ranks his base form which should be unchanged has gotten hugely more pwoerful than krillin or any none saiyan. is this ever explained in canon?
cause to me it seems SSJ forms are pointless if his base is increasing at such a rapid rate.

I mean....Goku constantly trains,like...that is his job.He trains 24 hours a day and 7 days a week.Don't get me wrong,i'm pretty sure Krillin is the strongest human on the planet without needing to be an android.But Goku also has constantly pushed himself to train like on the way to Namek.

[Shahadem]

Първоначално публикувано от Hellfire:

if you watch DB original he is scary liek hgis abriged self. he def hiding some power lol.

Първоначално публикувано от Shahadem:

Goku is a Saiyan, Krillin is a human. Not only are humans weaker, but humans cannot transform into a form that generates exponentially more Ki.

i was talkign base forms lol. the transformation power makes sense but he rarely trrains his base form since then.
i mean the time he spent in SSJ1 in cell you would think in theory his base would have been back on par with krillin.
it was jsut a weird thing but the death power ups makes alot of canon sense

Even for base forms Saiyans are stronger and humans are weaker. Goku, as a kid was already stronger than almost any human simply because he was a Saiyan, stronger even than the ones that spent years training. This shows the relative strength of Saiyans to humans. On top of that Goku realizes larger returns from training than humans and can also receive a huge boost to power everytime he comes near death unlike humans.

So yes, the answer really is as simple as the fact that Krillin is human and Goku is a Saiyan.

And if you want to complain about Saiyans being stronger I will also point out that gorillas and elephants are stronger than humans too.

[Rolando Zolo]

Първоначално публикувано от Shahadem:

Първоначално публикувано от Hellfire:

if you watch DB original he is scary liek hgis abriged self. he def hiding some power lol.



i was talkign base forms lol. the transformation power makes sense but he rarely trrains his base form since then.
i mean the time he spent in SSJ1 in cell you would think in theory his base would have been back on par with krillin.
it was jsut a weird thing but the death power ups makes alot of canon sense

Even for base forms Saiyans are stronger and humans are weaker. Goku, as a kid was already stronger than almost any human simply because he was a Saiyan, stronger even than the ones that spent years training. This shows the relative strength of Saiyans to humans. On top of that Goku realizes larger returns from training than humans and can also receive a huge boost to power everytime he comes near death unlike humans.

So yes, the answer really is as simple as the fact that Krillin is human and Goku is a Saiyan.

And if you want to complain about Saiyans being stronger I will also point out that gorillas and elephants are stronger than humans too.

i get where that is comign from however the argument is flawed in that tein and yajirobe even were on par with krillin and goku growing up. it was not until AFTER goku died to picollo in the radditz fight that he pulled ahead of the pack.

to better explain myself. pre radditz goku vs krillin is akin to the gap of zarbon and dodoria. one has a slight advantage but all in all they the same.
now the gap has grown to hercule vs cell level. case in point goku punching krillin across the planet.

the growth seemed odd was all. however i did forget to factor the near death boosts so i admit that in of itself explains it all and why the humans have stalled despite better training

[Rolando Zolo]

Първоначално публикувано от ✹Phillycheese✹:

Първоначално публикувано от Hellfire:

first off this topic is not about SSJ or its forms. my question is simple. goku and krillin have both grown up with nearly identical training and situations. yet the power gap between 2 as adults is MASSIVE!

as kids they were nearly dead equal but obv goku had the minor advantage in plot lines. goku came back from kami and had some new powers but even then he was on par with tein and rest of human Z fighters with only minor advantages. come the radditz saga he has not trained hard in that time with chichi yet its implied krillin never slacked off once.
krillin also got to do training with kami waiting for saiyans and got way more powerful, inventing the destructo disk technic in process.
in death krillin spent time on king kais planet in namek saga i believe (please correct me if i am remembering wrong) the time he spent seemed to be logner than goku did with the dragon balls cool down.

it seems since goku got SSJ and shot up power ranks his base form which should be unchanged has gotten hugely more pwoerful than krillin or any none saiyan. is this ever explained in canon?
cause to me it seems SSJ forms are pointless if his base is increasing at such a rapid rate.

I mean....Goku constantly trains,like...that is his job.He trains 24 hours a day and 7 days a week.Don't get me wrong,i'm pretty sure Krillin is the strongest human on the planet without needing to be an android.But Goku also has constantly pushed himself to train like on the way to Namek.

in fairness to krillin though goku did take a gap with gohan in peace times and his training has been more nature based or strength building. krillin living with roshi for so long he trained more martial arts and mentally. or at least that was implied.

[Player Zer01]

when goku trains he trains in base form not ssb or ssj. krillen barely trained after him and goku grew up in dragonball. any training krillen did was at kame house which did little to nothing. goku trained day in and out thus allowing him to grow 100x stronger than krillen. now mix in that goku is a sayian and thus grows straonger than a normal human and there lies the rest.

really at this point krillen would have to do some HEAVY SERIOUS training to even be a chance to goku in base form.

[Takii]

Yeah i believe it all comes down to their race, the only time krillian was actually on par with goku was in DB but was quickly out matched. I think the only reason why he did somewhat decently against SSGSS goku was because of the cleverness of his attacks. Goku isnt much for strats until crap hits the fan. You also have to remember that Goku as a baby have a power level of what 2? and that farmer on earth had a power level of 5 lol. I believe whis even states that his base form is actually much better to fight in because he brings out his natural power and latent abilities and has far bigger growth potential,where as SS forms are just intense power boosts.

But remember, these are just opinions based on the impressions that ive gotten from the show, manga and games. While some may see only certain things as being canon, which i never understood, how can someone say something isnt real? when the whole argument is about fictional characters in a fictional show, so none of its real lol. I just figure if it happens in the DB universe its legit, but thats me, i guess im just a different type of fan.

[Jinxxed]

Rewatch Dragon Ball.
People can speculate that humans can't get as strongas Saiyans all they want, but that simply isn't true. Look Roshi and Tien. The only reason Tien isn't as strong as Goku is because he chooses inferior training methods.

But back to Krillin (who isn't the strongest human at all. Tien is. Roshi is second. Krillin is possibly third, but I suspect even Hercule could beat him by the end of Z. Assuming Hercule trains). Krillin did NOT get the same training as Goku. They both got training from roshi, yes, but Goku went far beyond that. He went off to train on his own around the world ANd he recieved training Mr Popo for years. Krillin didn't get any of this. If I remember right, he continued to train with Roshi. Goku stayed with Popo and Kami until he had his growth spurt into "adult" goku. I think it was 3 years of non-stop training. Bulma even comments on how handsome he is.

If Krillin had stayed with Goku and joined him in ALL his training, He might have been near Goku's level (minus the Super Saiyan which is a multiplier transformation). BUT if you py attention to the show (Dragon Ball, not DBZ) you see that Krillin has always been lazy. During their training with Roshi, he's always looking for shortcuts and the easiest way to finish the training. This was a missed oppurtunity to make Krillin useful as a strategist or someone who tries to find weaknesses in enemies to end battles quickly or something. Instead they just make him lazy which results in him being weak compared to the other fighters.

Now back Tien. Tien is holding himself back because of Chaotzu. They're like brothers because they trained under the Crane master together. Tien seriously need to go back and train with king kai again for a few years. He stood toe to toe with Cell for crying out loud. He could ahve won if he had more stamina/energy or just a little more power. Humans cant get stronger as fast as Saiyans, but i think they can reach the same levels (again, minus Super Saiyan, unless they make up a human transformation which Tien has achieved already by opening his third eye. but maybe there are transformations that can go beyond that).

If I were writing the story, I'd have Tien get killed by Cell and ahve him go to King Kai again to learn the Kaiyoken technique and have that be a way for him to have a "super human" transformation that involves his third eye. A transformation that makes him hyper aware and faster so he can dodge and be more acurrate and see things on different planes/levels that no one else can see. He could easily be one of the top fighters. Maybe even without a transformation. He's just getting the best training. Same with Piccolo and everyone who isn't Goku and Vegeta which is super boring. Even failed shows like Bleach allow other characters to shine and defeat badguys.

Its why i like Dragon Ball more than DBZ. Goku wasn't the strongest. He was the most determined yet still enjoyed himself and hapopy go lucky. The story is just better and they actually do stuff other than fight the same bad guy for 30 episodes.

[Rolando Zolo]

Първоначално публикувано от Jinxxed:

Rewatch Dragon Ball.
People can speculate that humans can't get as strongas Saiyans all they want, but that simply isn't true. Look Roshi and Tien. The only reason Tien isn't as strong as Goku is because he chooses inferior training methods.

But back to Krillin (who isn't the strongest human at all. Tien is. Roshi is second. Krillin is possibly third, but I suspect even Hercule could beat him by the end of Z. Assuming Hercule trains). Krillin did NOT get the same training as Goku. They both got training from roshi, yes, but Goku went far beyond that. He went off to train on his own around the world ANd he recieved training Mr Popo for years. Krillin didn't get any of this. If I remember right, he continued to train with Roshi. Goku stayed with Popo and Kami until he had his growth spurt into "adult" goku. I think it was 3 years of non-stop training. Bulma even comments on how handsome he is.

If Krillin had stayed with Goku and joined him in ALL his training, He might have been near Goku's level (minus the Super Saiyan which is a multiplier transformation). BUT if you py attention to the show (Dragon Ball, not DBZ) you see that Krillin has always been lazy. During their training with Roshi, he's always looking for shortcuts and the easiest way to finish the training. This was a missed oppurtunity to make Krillin useful as a strategist or someone who tries to find weaknesses in enemies to end battles quickly or something. Instead they just make him lazy which results in him being weak compared to the other fighters.

Now back Tien. Tien is holding himself back because of Chaotzu. They're like brothers because they trained under the Crane master together. Tien seriously need to go back and train with king kai again for a few years. He stood toe to toe with Cell for crying out loud. He could ahve won if he had more stamina/energy or just a little more power. Humans cant get stronger as fast as Saiyans, but i think they can reach the same levels (again, minus Super Saiyan, unless they make up a human transformation which Tien has achieved already by opening his third eye. but maybe there are transformations that can go beyond that).

If I were writing the story, I'd have Tien get killed by Cell and ahve him go to King Kai again to learn the Kaiyoken technique and have that be a way for him to have a "super human" transformation that involves his third eye. A transformation that makes him hyper aware and faster so he can dodge and be more acurrate and see things on different planes/levels that no one else can see. He could easily be one of the top fighters. Maybe even without a transformation. He's just getting the best training. Same with Piccolo and everyone who isn't Goku and Vegeta which is super boring. Even failed shows like Bleach allow other characters to shine and defeat badguys.

Its why i like Dragon Ball more than DBZ. Goku wasn't the strongest. He was the most determined yet still enjoyed himself and hapopy go lucky. The story is just better and they actually do stuff other than fight the same bad guy for 30 episodes.

whiel logic is great and i respect i wanted to correct your human numbering.
Roshi is MILES weaker than yamcha and krillin by Z. he is eternal but he looses strength with age and not using. even training krillin and goku in DB original he admits he is outclassed. he need to spend ages channeling ki to buff hisu body.

as for Tein...yeah it's a debate. i agree he is stronger than krillin but he is apperantly not human but part of the 3 eye alien race according to some ancient magazine claim. toriyama "allegedly" published that info but i have never once seen proof Tein is an alien so to mne also he is number 1

[Rolando Zolo]

also i am not sure but i think the 4 Z fighters who saw king kai are meant to know kaioken as they did formally train with him. they just don't have a need to show it.

liek goku in SSJ 1 form vs freiza was stated to be using kaioken originally. it is just implied to be there (and yes i know blue says combining is impossible, yet another lore plot hole to me lol)

[GamingWithSilvertail]

Първоначално публикувано от Hellfire:

also i am not sure but i think the 4 Z fighters who saw king kai are meant to know kaioken as they did formally train with him. they just don't have a need to show it.

liek goku in SSJ 1 form vs freiza was stated to be using kaioken originally. it is just implied to be there (and yes i know blue says combining is impossible, yet another lore plot hole to me lol)

I dont know butttt uhhh, buttt uhhh when did they say goku used Kaioken during his SSJ fight?

Afaik, he used it only before.

[Rolando Zolo]

king kai mentioned it to yamcha who was watchign his fight. he said as he was fighting that goku has a trump card with it and king kai says nope, he was using it all along.

[Rolando Zolo]

though i may be miss remembering timing of that fight now i think back. however i know he 100% used ssj kaoiken vs pikon in other world fight for grand kai but not sure if that was canon?

---

ok i googled the freiza fight and yeah i was wrong he was kaioken in lead up to SSJ and when he was a false saiyan flickering before transformation. it seems he turned kaioken off at SSJ but its not really stated if he was or was not using it at time. safe guess is not but practical logic side would have been he would have been using all tools open to him with how mad he was in fight.

[Firaeveus Carron]

Първоначално публикувано от Hellfire:

first off this topic is not about SSJ or its forms. my question is simple. goku and krillin have both grown up with nearly identical training and situations. yet the power gap between 2 as adults is MASSIVE!

as kids they were nearly dead equal but obv goku had the minor advantage in plot lines. goku came back from kami and had some new powers but even then he was on par with tein and rest of human Z fighters with only minor advantages. come the radditz saga he has not trained hard in that time with chichi yet its implied krillin never slacked off once.
krillin also got to do training with kami waiting for saiyans and got way more powerful, inventing the destructo disk technic in process.
in death krillin spent time on king kais planet in namek saga i believe (please correct me if i am remembering wrong) the time he spent seemed to be logner than goku did with the dragon balls cool down.

it seems since goku got SSJ and shot up power ranks his base form which should be unchanged has gotten hugely more pwoerful than krillin or any none saiyan. is this ever explained in canon?
cause to me it seems SSJ forms are pointless if his base is increasing at such a rapid rate.

Krillin is a human.

[Absolute Madman]

As far as I know, in the show it's explained that Sayians get stronger after near-death experiences and Goku has had many, many near-death experiences. First one I recall at the moment is when he was a kid in Dragon Ball and fought against Tao Pai Pai, but I'm pretty sure he had a few way before that.