SSJ4 power level vs SSG

[Vlka-Fenryka-7th]

The unique dialogue between Beerus and every SSJ4 chacter currently in the game in PQ missions makes me wonder if SSJ4's power level is near the level of the Super Saiyan God.

I can only vaguely remember the dialogue between SSJ4 Vegeta and Beerus but it's kind of the same for the other 2 SSJ4 characters (Goku and Gogeta). SSJ4 Vegeta:"Haha the God of Destruction vs Super Saiyan 4, this should be interesting", both SSJ4 Goku and Gogeta have a similar reply after Beerus comments on the SSJ4 transformations power level.

Just bring Beerus to PQ mission 76 The Eternal Rival, where you should be able to hear all 3 of the unique dialogue between Beerus and the 3 SSJ4 characters.

[Vlka-Fenryka-7th]

Postat inițial de Mr. Allard:

Even if SSj4 was equal to SSj God, it would be superceded by SSj Blue.

Oddly enough SSB Goku and Vegeta don't have any unique dialogue with Beerus or Whis, if I'm not mistaken.

[Black_Knight]

Postat inițial de whisperingeyes666:

Postat inițial de Mr. Allard:

Even if SSj4 was equal to SSj God, it would be superceded by SSj Blue.

Oddly enough SSB Goku and Vegeta don't have any unique dialogue with Beerus or Whis, if I'm not mistaken.

Well SSGSS Goku and Vegeta were from DLC pack 3 in XV 1 and had no other dialogue but between themselves, so I wouldn't be suprised if they didn't add any lines beyond what they deemed necessary

[Nirvash]

They of course have that dialog because of the idea that God and Blue overlap SSJ4, so of course people would want to use SSJ4 against Super characters as a what-if scenario. Just like SSJ3-4 Broly even though those would kind of be downgrades on him.

I would think God and Blue are better than SSJ4, though their parameters are never really explained enough to know for sure. Alot of old official sources say that SSJ1 = base power x50 (Sounds crazy, but it would have to be more than x20 at least since it is stronger than Kaioken x20 from the same base power), then SSJ2 = SSJ1 x2, so base x100, and then 3 is 2x4, so base x400. In the episode of Super where Goku spars with Zamasu, he turns SSJ2 and Gowasu comments "His power increased ten times over", so... That could be a retcon of old multipliers, or he's just wrong.

Meanwhile, power levels stopped being a factor after Freiza. Apparently the manga for Super occasionally gives numbers, but they're so insane (eleven digits), it's probably better to just say "Really strong". So God and SSJ4 would have to be more than base x400 if old sources hold true. In turn Blue would have to be significantly higher than God. Since there is no SSJ5, it would only make sense to level God versus SSJ4.

It is actually very interesting to directly compare God to SSJ4 because they seem to share alot of characteristics. Namely the red theming, and changing the body beyond muscles and power. SSJ3 is a bastardized transformation that doesn't seem natural to Saiyans. It's literally forcing your body to transform, versus SSJ1 and 2 happening natrually. Also think about Ultra Super Saiyan in that sense. SSJ4 is like perfectly tapping into their hidden Oozaru form and optimizing it onto their normal body, whereas God seems to come from somewhere beyond their physical bodies.

SSJ4: More individualized than other forms. Goku and Vegeta's fur are slightly different shades, Goku's eyes turn yellow, Vegeta's eyes turn turqoise (Like a slightly darker SSJ eye color) and Gogeta has bright blue eyes with red hair. Meanwhile another characteristic is how it effects the body. Goku as a child turns into a full blown adult as SSJ4, while Vegeta seems to not change at all, or even just slightly if you look at the facial structure, get a bit younger. This would suggest the form puts your body into it's most "ideal" state. Honestly SSJ4 is the coolest form to me. The biggest drawback design wise is, why do they grow varying styles of clothing when they transform? Do they pick their Super Clothes? It's just odd.

SSJ God: The energy let off by the body is godly in such a way that mortals can't sense it, the body strinks, red energy, red hair, red eyes, and the hair is in a relaxed position, giving a look of divinity to it. Since Goku is the only one to turn God form, we don't know if other characters would differ in appearance if they had performed the ritual instead. On a side note, it is also pretty interesting how Kaioken is an ability which turns your ki red, increases your strength by a ton, and before Goku was only useable by gods... And then the God form of Saiyans is... Almost identical save for a bit of color difference.

It's kinda like SSJ4 and God are 2 sides of the same coin. It's kind of a shame we don't have any numbers or truly informative stuff on exactly what they do.

[Vlka-Fenryka-7th]

@Meatbag are your multipliers for the different Super Saiyan transformations based on the old "God Scale" that came out around the time the Battle of the Gods movie released, because that power scale got retconned by Dragon Ball Super.

Also SSJ4 is still a noncannon transformation from a now retconned series timeline so it's unlikely we have any accurate power scale that's actually official.

[Null_User]

From what I understand, GT was made to be it's own universe or parallel reality or whatever. The story from Super is the follow up to the DBZ we all know and love. So if they are from alternate realities, GT stuff and Super stuff may never be meant to meet (unless demand is so high that the makers see a very large profit from it, which given GT's fanbase compared to it's detractors and plain haters, it's extremely unlikely to happen).

So my belief is that while there may be difference in what power SSB and SSJ4 have, they were transformations made on need for plot continuity and are there to do the job the plot needs to be done. So they will not be much more powerful than their respective plots require.

As SSJ4 and SSG and it's subsequent SSB transformations go, I prefer SS4 concept (not the final design because those stupid eyes) because it tries to run a return to the roots theme. To reconnect the saiyan with his oozaru form. Something completely deviated from in the God and SSB forms, which are simply returns to Goku's Kaioken and first Super Saiyan forms.

[Asturok]

If I remember it correctly the dialog between goku ssj4 and beerus in the parallel mission implies that ssj4 is stronger than god mode at least (not sure blue) (and of course now there's this ssjblue-kaioken thing)
But whatever, there is no way to adress power levels coherently. I gave up long ago...

[Nirvash]

Postat inițial de whisperingeyes666:

@Meatbag are your multipliers for the different Super Saiyan transformations based on the old "God Scale" that came out around the time the Battle of the Gods movie released, because that power scale got retconned by Dragon Ball Super.

Also SSJ4 is still a noncannon transformation from a now retconned series timeline so it's unlikely we have any accurate power scale that's actually official.

My scale came from old sources people found years ago. I think it was a magazine or an interview or something. Basically back when people were badgering Toriyama for power levels, and before Super was even a thing. The multipliers could have changed since then, but I haven't seen anyone who says so.

[Vlka-Fenryka-7th]

Postat inițial de Asturok:

If I remember it correctly the dialog between goku ssj4 and beerus in the parallel mission implies that ssj4 is stronger that god mode at least (not sure blue)
But whatever, there is no way to adress power levels coherently. I gave up long ago...

All 3 SSJ4 characters have similar dialogue with Beerus, also it appears that Akira gave up on adding exact power levels in the anime or manga after the Frieza Saga.

To be more exact it's the part where they stopped using scouters to show power levels and it's the same time Frieza broke his scouter just before transforming into his second form and telling Vegeta it's power level is 1 million. After this power levels are never mentioned in the anime or manga, though I'm unsure about the manga.

[Nirvash]

Power levels come up again when Trunks shows up, though only so they can say he's only at 5, then he kills everyone.

Also apparently in the Manga for Super (Which is useless since the anime comes first this time) apparently tells a power level during the unvierse tournament, with some crazy number with 11 digits, I think some time when Goku is going against Hit. Differences in the Manga for that bit are quite plentiful though. First, there was no Kaioken in the Manga at all. Instead, Vegeta was at only 1-10th of his power versus hit because apparently turning Blue drains tons of Stamina, so Vegeta knowlingly crippled himself before the biggest fight. The anime took that power difference and pushed it the other way by doing Kaioken x10. Also in the Manga, Super Saiyan God (Called Super Saiyan Red once or twice) is a form Goku can just whip out at any time, which Goku did against Hit before turning Blue.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to find a clip, but it's tough. There is a point in the early Buu saga, where someone turns Super Saiyan, and Babidi measures their power saying it is 3000, but is using a whole different power scale as measured on his progress bar thingy for Buu. Dabura then goes onto say something along the lines of "Doesn't it only take 200 to destroy a planet?" which suggests that the Saiyan in question could destroy the planet by simply flying through it with their body if they wanted to. Anyway- point being, that new power scale could be useful if they brought it up again.

[Vlka-Fenryka-7th]

@Meatbag the clip your after is Dragon Ball Kai 2014 episode 11 and about 17 minutes in.

[Nirvash]

I was more correct than I thought, it'd been awhile since I saw that scene, but yes. Kili, whatever that is, seems like it would be a better way to measure power going forward, if only just to decrease the sheer number of digits, and give an opportunity to make the numbers more consistent. So right now we would be in the tens or hundreds of thousand instead of Qitilians or whatever we're at otherwise.

[Toreador]

in extreme butoden, ssg goku wrecks omega shenron