Need help with the end game conditions

[Zorg is Disappointed]

I was playing as the Germans with the military freedom option. I captured leningrad around the end of september and then a month later the game ended with a defeat for me. If it had let me continue I might have captured Moscow or Rostov to get a better score. I checked the manual and confirmed that this is the end game procedure, but it doesn't make any sense. Why end the game based off of capturing one objective when it normally wouldn't end until 1942? So the only work around I can see is to just blockade a key objective city until you are in position to capture all three within a month. Otherwise you will lose regardless of how operationally well you are doing as soon as capture one key objective. Is this an oversight or am I just playing the game wrong?

[plugger]

Hi,

No, you're playing it correctly.

The victory condition has a one month timer on it to prevent player's gaming the system and throwing everything at an objective to the expense of all else. It gives the Soviets some counterplay in the case of a crazily overextended German.

The other reason it's only a month is to prevent the game dragging on past the point where victory has been acheived. If you're the Germans and you've won then about a month is all you want to hang around for until the pretty girls with the champagne arrive.

On the other hand if there is the situation of yourself which can arise especially when the German plays with the easier option settings & difficulty.

Keep in mind that to win as the Germans you need to attain your objective and enough of the rest of Russia to have a secure foundation for '42. The chances of taking more ground as the Germans lowers dramatically once winter hits. Holding what you've got can be challenging.

Still it's a tricky balancing act to get right and at present the best advice would be, if you found yourself in the same situation, tobe aware of the one month timer once you've taken your objective.

Cheers,
Cameron

[Mercutio]

Cameron,

While I understand your arguement, he was given a defeat, not a victory. Why end when the player hasn't won?

Regards

[plugger]

Hi Mercutio,

To take your objective and score a defeat one month later would indicate that you've failed to take enough ground elsewhere and that the Soviets have managed to retain their objective.

It'd also indicate that a number of 'make the game easier' options were likely chosen which would raise the bar required for a draw or a win (your score scales up or down with the overall game difficulty). With the right combinations of settings and difficulty it possible to make Russia a cakewalk for the Germans. If you want to claim a win in this situation you've got to do more than just take your objective.

It's an asymmetrical conflict and a line has to be drawn somewhere regards victory in order to give both sides a chance. During Beta testing several alternatives were tried. Extending out the timer to the full length of the game (57 turns) wasn't found to be a good option.

If the German player had clearly won already it was a drag to have to wait that long for the end of game results. Alternatively if the outcome wasn't obvious (such as the case above), having the game go through to the end favoured the Soviets as they had time, weather and reinforcements on their side and had the capacity to roll back the over extended Germans.

I introduced 'instant' win conditions such as taking Gorki, or all three objectives, to provide altenative pathways to victory.

However there needs to be a cut-off point once the German objective has been taken where victory can be determined. At present that's one month after. Previously it was double that but the dual problems mentioned above (dragging on and 'hey, the Soviets have stolen my Victory') were even more apparent.

It's not the perfect system by any means but the game offers such a wide range of difficulty settings (from really easy to extremely hard - it's been beaten on all) that accomodating the full range is challenging. The approach I've taken is that a win is something that you have to work at it and it's a constant, fixed condition.

If you play the game with the difficulty settings on minimum then you'll have a higher bar to jump to achieve that win than if you do the opposite (it'll be lowered). Both wins should be equivalent.

Cheers,
Cameron

[Mercutio]

Hi Cameron,

BTW - thanks for the colorblind rail tracks, it is obvious now. Although I find myself yelling at the screen for the rail conversion crews to go faster:p

It is good to know that taking the main objective too fast can result in a defeat, but it certainly isn't obvious.

While I get your point, Total War games tend to be a bit of a slog once you broke though, it seems a bit obtuse that taking your primary objective can bite you on the rear!

I appreciate that all levels of difficulty have been tested and verified as won. I beta tested OOB with their Japanese invading China expansion and won on its hardest level. The downside was when it was released I felt no need to buy it, even with a discount. Why? I beat it on the hardest level in the last build?

That said, this game is much deeper and more engaging. As I progress, I think, "Man, I am kicking some serious butt!". Then I see a wall of conscripts, my supply lines are stretched and everyone is complaining about something! Now I feel like I should take a bottle of vodka or schnapps and leave this snake pit. :)

Really good game you guys have made. At this point I have to agree to disagree about taking the main objective starts some countdown timer for victory. Despite your post, which I respect, I can see why the OP feels cheated.

Kind Regards,
John

[plugger]

Hi,

Nah, did the maths. Unless there is a sneaky bug there is no combination of settings that will allow you to take your objective and lose the game.

The only way to take the objective and lose is to make use of 'Helpers' (in-game cheats). These can be used multiple times and the consequences of doing so are clearly flagged.

Cheers,
Cameron

[Mercutio]

Hi Cameron,

Thanks for the reply, but please explain 'helpers'.

Cheers,
John

[plugger]

Hi John,

Down on the bottom button bar there are four 'helpers' that give you the option of getting free trucks, fuel, activations, etc. They represent crisis situations where you are requesting emergency help. You can press the buttons and read the info as they require a second press in order to activate (prevents accidental use).

They are in there for a few reasons - to help players learn the game and to give you a way out if you've painted yourself into a corner rather than having to write off that play through.

They also provide a way of balancing out uneven PBEM skill levels. The downside to using helpers is that every time you pick up the red phone and yell 'Broken Arrow' the bar needed to officially win the game gets set a little higher.

Cheers,
Cameron

[Zorg is Disappointed]

Cameron,

I did not use any helpers but the game was on easy mode so I could learn. Could that be the reason I lost? Also, should I just try the support hitler initial decision instead of operational freedom? I took leningrad and was in striking distance of moscow when the game ended a month later, giving me a minor loss. I had destroyed over 200 divisions and felt like the soviets were on their last legs.

Thanks

[plugger]

Hi sunglasses,

Easy mode can range from easy to super easy depending on the chosen settings. The game's balanced for normal settings but even on super easy you shouldn't run into this situation.

There are a few other things that might have affected it. If you've still got it could you send me a saved game file ('dc3' file extension, found in '/savedGames') so I can take a look?

cameron dot tasmania at gmail dot com.

Cheers,
Cameron

[lordclane]

I'll be curious to see how this turns out. I am mightily tempted by this game, but this sort of thing may be inevitable when ending the game so early. Since the Germans had at least a chance of winning up to late 1942 (some would suggest mid-1943), the victory conditions have to be based on how well they "set themselves up" for the rest of the campaign." "Sunglasses" problem is apparently based on the "take Leningrad first, then "roll up" going south, which is a wonderful idea to try, but not feasible if the game doesn't give you time for it.

On the other side, the problems faced by the designers grow exponentially the longer the game lasts, with play balance biting them on one side as the number of possible situations grows, and the political element (a wonderful addition, incidentally) bites them on the other, for the same reason.

Hitler's original idea was to get to Moscow, Leningrad, Kiev and the Crimea in the initial campaign, then, with the anticipated Soviet collapse, advance to a line roughly following the Volga in 1942, picking up the Caucasus oilfields along the way. Of course the Soviet collapse never happened (and probably would not have), but, had the Germans achieved something like that, even with lend lease, production in the Urals, eastern resources, etc., the Germans might have had something they could hold-- particularly if they hadn't been so stupid about administration in, say, the Ukraine, which was pretty strongly anti-Stalin to begin with,

However, game-wise-- that would require a letting the Germans have a full two years to establish such a defensible area (anything less than that would allow too many footholds for the Soviets-- bolstered by resources from the East and their own production capability further East-- to eventually overwhelm the Germans, regardless of "objectives" they hold. That's a LOT of extrapolation!

So... I remain torn. I love this game concept, but, as is, it looks like it ends too early to really try out some of the concepts that might have led to a German victory. Decisions. Decisions....