Why focusing on PVP in an MMO is a bad idea

[Gopher]

Beyond Eve Online, name another game that has PURE PVP (2/3rds of the areas are pvp) that has successfully survived.

For every one you name I can name 15 that didn't.

The reality is that balancing PVP is incredibly hard, and to find that right balance between effort to pve and loss to pvpers is just right that people don't just rage quit after the first instance is difficult.

Also trying to prevent things like cheesing (speeder bikes with guns) griefing (in general) and zerging almost always destroy this type of game's population.

Look back on history

Ultima Online - had to get rid of PVP to survive
Asherons Call - had pvp only servers, they were super empty compared to the PVE
Shadowbane - pure pvp, dead
Star Wars Galaxies - dead
Warhammer online - pure pvp, dead
Crowfall - dead
starbase - dead
Worlds Adrift - dead
Dual Universe - (only partial pvp but required if you want t5 ore) dead
Wurm Online tried pvp servers, and they 100% died every time (no joke, no one on them)
MMOs that created PVP only server variations saw dramatic declines in the populations on these servers compared to PVE.
New World - had to remove PVP because they just couldn't keep up with the ways people were griefing players. Made it a toggle. This is a game without repercussions for dieing, mind you!

The reality is that creating balanced, fair pvp with just the right amount of repercussions/consequences of loss is near impossible. This is why most games put "PVP on rails" this could be instanced areas where you can pvp, or arenas.

In games where you create things and spend hours making them/mining the materials this is even more so true.

Not to mention adding pvp to any game like this will just attract the worst of the worst people - rust players.

The biggest mistake this game made, and the reason it lost all it's player base is because they didn't have PVE content (fighting AI ships) to occupy people and encourage a community, instead they focused on PVP and as history as shown only a small portion of the population actually wants to PVP the rest all want to create ships, mine, creation stations, and sell on the market and make money. They would PVE if AI ships, but most people simply don't want to fight PVP.

The fact is if I wanted to PVP I would go play Rust, Tarkov, Elite Dangerous, or Star Citizen. I wouldn't play a voxel based game to do it.

[Zugs]

9 out of 10 of the top played and current steam games are... PVP....

[o.n10170]

Originally posted by Zugs:

9 out of 10 of the top played and current steam games are... PVP....

mostly arena style multiplayer games and of course rust.

But MMO games need more than just PVP to get by. when every aspect of your game revolves around PVP or doing activities to support others who do PVP, it's not going to last. Especially in a game where you can lose hours of work in just one moment.

Even rust has tons of pve servers, and pvp is generally balnced via wipes. In a game like starbase that has no wipes, its very easy for one or two factions to achieve a stranglehold.

[Gopher]

Originally posted by Zugs:

9 out of 10 of the top played and current steam games are... PVP....

are they MMOS? Where people invest a hundred hours into their character?

[YouTube.com/StoneLegion]

Originally posted by Zugs:

9 out of 10 of the top played and current steam games are... PVP....

I love Arena PvP and it's a wonderful change. But a Full out MMO PVP Game is rare to keep numbers high and even more rare to be successful. I knew this all along but was hoping the game would of had a better launch and smoother sandbox especially with a big universe there be less PvP and more crafting, building, etc... But their economy and value of stuff going to ♥♥♥♥ so fast and the over the top boring mining grind where was better to vendor materials was just too much...

The PvP Exists they need to work on everything else now.

[ZombieMouse]

It's a function of risk versus reward.

Right now the risk is very high for very little reward because it takes a long time to build a good ship compared to little reward for flying/losing it in PvP space.

Frozenbyte know this, which is why they are currently designing an insurance system. How they will implement this in a way that is not open to abuse is anyone's guess.

[b0nehead]

I've taken a pretty long break since release.

I want to warp around even in a subcap. Star citizen has it perfect. Can we copy this?

I want people to come shop at my starbase even as a lone wolf. Can this happen please?

Since we're doing digital currency a la davos. Can we kill the black hole vendor that destroys the economy?

The ship shops too? Please?
People can sell it at their "Starbase", fully built and raidable. Sounds juicy.

I'd say toss the digital currency and we can ship around bars of refined metals instead...but don't want to get too extreme now. Whatever

[MadConsular]

Well only if you cherry pick them. You forgot: Escape from Tarkov. Rust. Conan Exiles. League of Legends. Dota 2. Overwatch. Halo Infinite. Ark Survival Evolved. etc. Plenty of successful PvP games

[Tal0s]

Albion Online
Mortal Online
SWG died but was successful for a very long time.
Planetside 1/2
UO has plenty of PvP wut

[YouTube.com/StoneLegion]

Originally posted by MadConsular:

Well only if you cherry pick them. You forgot: Escape from Tarkov. Rust. Conan Exiles. League of Legends. Dota 2. Overwatch. Halo Infinite. Ark Survival Evolved. etc. Plenty of successful PvP games

Arena Size, Arena Size, Arena Size, Arena Size, Arena Size, Arena Size, Arena Size, Arena Size.

Wow you really are bad at this?

[YouTube.com/StoneLegion]

Originally posted by Tal0s:

Albion Online
Mortal Online
SWG died but was successful for a very long time.
Planetside 1/2
UO has plenty of PvP wut

Albion is pretty much a rare gem and 2D game that seems to have won the love of PvPers in recent years. Not a Pure PvP Game.

Mortal Online has no players... Can't class a game as a MMO with 10 people can you? Not pure PvP Game.

SWG was far from a PVP Only Game.. Issue people bring up here is that is all Starbase is...

PlanetSide 2 is just your standard FPS in large scale that is designed for quick drop ins and outs being at a large scale. Great game, but it's like comparing apples and oranges...

UO is 20+ Years old and yeah most older games were better at PvP and once again not a pure 100% PvP game like StarBase...

Please try again.

[Tasolth]

Smaller than they used to be but emulators are a thing you know... SWGemu, Return of Reckoning. To name two at least.

[Cheesepizza2]

Originally posted by MadConsular:

Well only if you cherry pick them. You forgot: Escape from Tarkov. Rust. Conan Exiles. League of Legends. Dota 2. Overwatch. Halo Infinite. Ark Survival Evolved. etc. Plenty of successful PvP games

??? we're talking about mmos

[ZombieMouse]

Originally posted by Wanted514:

I want people to come shop at my starbase even as a lone wolf. Can this happen please?
[...]
The ship shops too? Please?
People can sell it at their "Starbase", fully built and raidable. Sounds juicy.

We have been told recently that ship shops for player stations are something we will get eventually.

[xZero]

Originally posted by Stone Legion:

Originally posted by Tal0s:

Albion Online
Mortal Online
SWG died but was successful for a very long time.
Planetside 1/2
UO has plenty of PvP wut

Albion is pretty much a rare gem and 2D game that seems to have won the love of PvPers in recent years. Not a Pure PvP Game.

Please try again.

Albion isn't 2D, just saying.

And even though I don't own the game, it seems they're just trying to do what EVE has done. I've never been a huge fan of PvP, however, the reason I play EVE is because even in HighSec you can be ganked by other players. Just be aware Concord will be on your ass quickly. The level of freedom you have in EVE is what makes it popular, there's something for everyone in EVE.

And I'll end by saying this. Games with no risk tend to give much less enjoyment than those with risk. Games these days hold your hand and lack the freedom we had years ago because they were "too difficult" or were "hard to learn".

We need some games that throw you to the wolves these days.

[Gopher]

Dual Universe suffers from the same issues as starbase. Amazing ship editor with zero content