Starbase

Starbase

SydWad Jul 9, 2019 @ 5:58pm
Ship weapon question
Will the Rail Cannons be customisable in size and will i be able to go full UNSC and make a ship that is 80% gun that can tear a hole from stem to stern in a single shot?
I always run a Halo faction in the game Space Engineers and it would be fun to actually use their design philosophy
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Showing 1-15 of 32 comments
Stepbro Jul 9, 2019 @ 6:08pm 
Originally posted by SYDWAD:
Will the Rail Cannons be customisable in size and will i be able to go full UNSC and make a ship that is 80% gun that can tear a hole from stem to stern in a single shot?
I always run a Halo faction in the game Space Engineers and it would be fun to actually use their design philosophy

Absolutely no reason to believe this is not possible; As you (I assume) saw in the feature video, spaceship weapons are infact modular, in one part of the video (1:54) you see an auto cannon that includes a single device base, connected up with multiple parts to incorporate 2 seperate full auto cannons on the one device base, almost like a double-gun, this should theoritically be true for all ship-mounted weapons and their modular nature.

Ontop of this, there is no reason to suggest there would be a limit on device bases, so the assumption would be you can add as many guns as your heart would desire (And your materials would support ;3 Oh and your space would allow xD)
Last edited by Stepbro; Jul 9, 2019 @ 6:09pm
SpiralRazor Jul 10, 2019 @ 12:19am 
Im not sold unless and until spinal mounts are a thing.
Stepbro Jul 10, 2019 @ 12:31am 
Originally posted by SpiralRazor:
Im not sold unless and until spinal mounts are a thing.

A great thing to do when you make a suggestion like this is to provide reference material for what you're looking for, when you say 'Spinal mount', my research leads me to a lot of places, but personally nothing that helps me understand EXACTLY what you're looking for, perhaps you could provide images/references from other games that would better explain a 'spinal mount' as it would pertain to Starbase :3

Most useful information i found:

As a rule of thumb, for a weapon to be considered a Spinal Mount, it should follow at least some of the following criteria:

A Spinal Mount Weapon should occupy at least 10%, and preferably 20% or more, of the MASS of the ship.
A Spinal Mount Weapon should predominantly face forward, preferably it should only fire into the fore (F) arc, more preferably, it should be a Fixed Mount in the straight ahead position. Technically, you could have a Spinal Mount fixed to fire straight aft as well, but that is rather rare.
The Spinal Mount Weapon should be the most powerful weapon on the ship, or among the most powerful.

Which to me makes me think of some ridiculous GIANT gun ontop of the ship, but i'm really not sure, if this is the case, i don't think we'll see anything like that any time soon, but i suppose it will likely all depend on the statistics during early access, if the players show that this sort of large scale PvP combat is what they're looking for, and the various discussion mediums reflect those statistics, i doubt they would refrain from adding such things, they already want people to make giant ships and such, no reason they wouldn't include giant guns too xD
AuraFB  [developer] Jul 10, 2019 @ 5:03am 
Originally posted by SYDWAD:
Will the Rail Cannons be customisable in size and will i be able to go full UNSC and make a ship that is 80% gun that can tear a hole from stem to stern in a single shot?

I don't think the size is customizable, but you could technically pull this off by trying to hook up a Rail Cannon to a very small ship. A fully assembled Rail Cannon is about the same size as our smallest ship, Vasama, so it's a different thing entirely if you could make it work with a small ship - I think there might be some balance and power issues. :D But no doubt someone will test this once the game enters EA.
SydWad Jul 10, 2019 @ 3:31pm 
Originally posted by LindaFB:
I don't think the size is customizable, but you could technically pull this off by trying to hook up a Rail Cannon to a very small ship. A fully assembled Rail Cannon is about the same size as our smallest ship, Vasama, so it's a different thing entirely if you could make it work with a small ship - I think there might be some balance and power issues. :D But no doubt someone will test this once the game enters EA.
aw, i was also hoping to have capital ship sized stations designed to insta kill anything large enough to get in its kill zone.

Ive also been wondering what the combat range is. Is it short range? causes problems with massive ships or is it as long as the munitions are in visual range?
Stepbro Jul 10, 2019 @ 3:42pm 
Originally posted by SYDWAD:
aw, i was also hoping to have capital ship sized stations designed to insta kill anything large enough to get in its kill zone.

You can still do that, you just need to outfit your giant ship with a lot of smaller guns as opposed to one (Or a couple of) big gun(s) xD
zgrssd Jul 10, 2019 @ 5:41pm 
Originally posted by SpiralRazor:
Im not sold unless and until spinal mounts are a thing.
Spinal mounts are a bug, not a feature.
Basically you have a gun so overpowered for the frame, the only place to mount it is inside the hull. Not only will you get very few shoots (ammo and power constraint), you have to aim entirely with the frame and get a lot of recoil.

If you can do the job with guns mounted on the outside, you would use that. Because you can fit multiple of them and get a lot more shoots in total out of them.

If you can do the job with guns mounted on turrets, you would use that. Because they can actually cover a lot of directions and aim independantly of the hull.
SydWad Jul 10, 2019 @ 8:25pm 
Originally posted by zgrssd:
Spinal mounts are a bug, not a feature.
Basically you have a gun so overpowered for the frame, the only place to mount it is inside the hull. Not only will you get very few shoots (ammo and power constraint), you have to aim entirely with the frame and get a lot of recoil.

If you can do the job with guns mounted on the outside, you would use that. Because you can fit multiple of them and get a lot more shoots in total out of them.

If you can do the job with guns mounted on turrets, you would use that. Because they can actually cover a lot of directions and aim independantly of the hull.

Id say you're wrong there. Inline weapons can be far larger than turreted ones, true they suck if you're the one being attacked but they are amazing when you are the attacker. WW2 there were many models of submarines with inline cannons meant to pop up, attack and disappear. Also torpedo tubes are a thing sooo... ya
If you're a good general you dont want a fleet of "one size fits all" ships, you want many specialized ships that can complement each other and fit all the holes, wolfpack tactics are a powerful thing. You dont bring out your glass cannons in a position where they can get shot first.
TLDR; dont underestimate alpha damage, if you can kill them before they can fire back thats all the better. No repairs, no loss of life.
zgrssd Jul 11, 2019 @ 7:34am 
Originally posted by SYDWAD:
Originally posted by zgrssd:
Spinal mounts are a bug, not a feature.
Basically you have a gun so overpowered for the frame, the only place to mount it is inside the hull. Not only will you get very few shoots (ammo and power constraint), you have to aim entirely with the frame and get a lot of recoil.

If you can do the job with guns mounted on the outside, you would use that. Because you can fit multiple of them and get a lot more shoots in total out of them.

If you can do the job with guns mounted on turrets, you would use that. Because they can actually cover a lot of directions and aim independantly of the hull.

Id say you're wrong there. Inline weapons can be far larger than turreted ones, true they suck if you're the one being attacked but they are amazing when you are the attacker. WW2 there were many models of submarines with inline cannons meant to pop up, attack and disappear. Also torpedo tubes are a thing sooo... ya
I did mention the part of "being able to do the job".

Secondly I think we should properly elaborate the 4 types:
- Spinal
- Fixed
- Turnable
- Turreted

If they could have used destroyer/cruiser style turnable torpedo tubes on submarines, they would have done so. It just was never an option (mostly due to [re]loading).

The only boat/ship with spinal weaponry I can think off are Scifi example - and the Punt Gun on the Punt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punt_gun
Even fixed weapons are pretty rare on ships. Stuff like aft/side-torpedo tubes on torpedo boats cometo mind. But even here, you prefer turnable.
The primary guns of any ship was turreted. Even the Deckguns on Submarines ended up there.

Airplanes do have a lot more fixed facing weapons, but even there true spinal weapons are rare. The closest was afaik the A-10's 30mm Gatling Gun. And even that is more a fixed weapon then a spinal gun.

So yeah, people do not really use spinal guns. If you have to put in a spinal gun, you propably "needed a bigger boat" all along.
obliviondoll Jul 11, 2019 @ 12:13pm 
If you have scalable customisable weapons and a "fixed mount" option in place of having all weapons on turrets, you could build a spinal mount weapon. And for reference, while rare on boats, fixed mounts have been relatively common on land vehicles at times as well as aircraft like zgrssd mentioned.

From the sound of things, the rail cannon isn't a scalable customisable weapon, unfortunately. It would be nice if that changes, or if other weapons are designed which are scalable. For an example of what I mean by scalable weapons, the railgun in Cosmoteer (a 2D ship building game with crew management currently in alpha testing) is a good demonstration. That game's railgun weapon requires:

1. The Railgun Loader at the "back" of the weapon.
2. ANY number of Railgun Accelerators which extend the length of the weapon, and the projectile speed and damage for each accelerator in line.
3. A Railgun Launcher which is the barrel/front of the weapon.
4. Power being provided to every single section of the weapon.
5. Ammo being supplied at the "loader" end of the weapon.

The accelerators do suffer from diminishing returns, so you get to a point where stacking more and more accelerators gives less and less actual value and still costs the same amount of extra power per accelerator. This limits the scale at which bigger is actually an efficient use of resources, and you could do something similar with a weapon in Starbase, making it possible to build an enormous engine of destruction out of a singule giant weapon on board a giant super-ship or station, but having 5 weapons 20% of the size would be a more efficient use of resources. And building 2 of those superweapons would be more efficient than a single weapon even three times the size.
zgrssd Jul 11, 2019 @ 1:46pm 
Originally posted by obliviondoll:
the railgun in Cosmoteer (a 2D ship building game with crew management currently in alpha testing) is a good demonstration. That game's railgun weapon requires:

1. The Railgun Loader at the "back" of the weapon.
2. ANY number of Railgun Accelerators which extend the length of the weapon, and the projectile speed and damage for each accelerator in line.
3. A Railgun Launcher which is the barrel/front of the weapon.
4. Power being provided to every single section of the weapon.
5. Ammo being supplied at the "loader" end of the weapon.

The accelerators do suffer from diminishing returns, so you get to a point where stacking more and more accelerators gives less and less actual value and still costs the same amount of extra power per accelerator.
I figured that is what you meant. But nothing they have shown so far indicates that this is in the game.

They also said there is a hardcoded speed limit of 150. And usually those limits are set so the colission code has some chance of catching up. And given the firerate of some guns, I bet it applies especially to them. That only leaves properties like "punch through" wich stacking more barrels could buff.
Last edited by zgrssd; Jul 11, 2019 @ 1:46pm
obliviondoll Jul 11, 2019 @ 3:03pm 
Originally posted by zgrssd:
I figured that is what you meant. But nothing they have shown so far indicates that this is in the game.

hence why my post was framed as an explanation of something which might be considered in future, and NOT as something I expected to already be in the game.

They also said there is a hardcoded speed limit of 150. And usually those limits are set so the colission code has some chance of catching up. And given the firerate of some guns, I bet it applies especially to them. That only leaves properties like "punch through" wich stacking more barrels could buff.

Firstly, I'd expect there to be a separate (and higher) speed limit for projectiles, but you do have a point that there should be some kind of limit.

But more importantly, that doesn't preclude the possibility of a scalable weapon which starts with less than the maximum speed and can add extensions that increase projectile speed up to a point (possibly with diminishing returns stalling it before it reaches the speed limit).
SydWad Jul 11, 2019 @ 4:49pm 
Originally posted by zgrssd:
The only boat/ship with spinal weaponry I can think off are Scifi example - and the Punt Gun on the Punt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punt_gun

I was thinking of the more popular example of the French Surcouf https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a1/46/f3/a146f3f3b28cdd51a0406cd75ef7dd92.jpg
A submarine with large frontal cannons meant to attack and flee.
Like i said there is a use for ships designed to kill within the first volley but you would have them supported by warships and anti fighter craft.
Its similar to saying Female tanks are worthless because they typically have low armor and no penetration so if they are faced with anything with a cannon they loose, but the germans used them to great effect during the blitzkrieg by supporting them with Male tanks so they could complement eachother, Female taking out infantry and flanking while the Male engage the armor and take the fire.
zgrssd Jul 11, 2019 @ 5:12pm 
Originally posted by SYDWAD:
Originally posted by zgrssd:
The only boat/ship with spinal weaponry I can think off are Scifi example - and the Punt Gun on the Punt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punt_gun

I was thinking of the more popular example of the French Surcouf https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a1/46/f3/a146f3f3b28cdd51a0406cd75ef7dd92.jpg
A submarine with large frontal cannons meant to attack and flee.
How is that a Spinal gun?
That is a turnable at worst, but actually goes into full on turret.
SydWad Jul 11, 2019 @ 9:17pm 
Originally posted by zgrssd:
How is that a Spinal gun?

I wasnt talking specifically about spinal guns just large alpha damage weapons in general. Because you were saying that design philosophy was bad.
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Date Posted: Jul 9, 2019 @ 5:58pm
Posts: 32