It feels impossible to balance predator ratio to prey growth to plants.

[ImaginaMagica]

I fill the dome with plenty of food, skipping time until it's totally green. I put in some consumers (like rabbits) and wait until their first reproduction cycle occurs before I ever add a group of predators. The consumer population still baloons out of control and destroys all my plants, which don't regrow fast enough to support the babies.

When consumer groups split they also don't feel like they split far enough away from each other, resulting in more decimated vegitation.

All of this feels a bit better with the speed changes that occurred with 1.9, but even after crunching numbers outside of the game there doesn't feel like a way I can ever make a system that can sustain itself for more than a year without intervention.

[Immersed Games]

Hi ImagineMagica,

Which Biome are you working with? I can tell you for sure that the Pikas are out of control due to a reproduction issue another user helped us figure out and that is being fixed for 1.10. Do you feel like the issue you described is happening in other biomes as well?

[ImaginaMagica]

Originally posted by Immersed Games:

Hi ImagineMagica,

Which Biome are you working with? I can tell you for sure that the Pikas are out of control due to a reproduction issue another user helped us figure out and that is being fixed for 1.10. Do you feel like the issue you described is happening in other biomes as well?

This is definitely happening for me in Great Plains. Given the numbers I'm counting from the Jackrabbits in my Desert biome it appears to me that a similar effect is happening there too.

[Immersed Games]

I'll pass this onto Alotuz and have him look into it. Thanks for taking time from your day to make this post. We really appreciate it!

[Alotuz]

Some players wait until their first reproduction cycle before they start introducing predators, like you are. Personally, I like to mitigate the animal juvenile population by putting in predators that eat only the juvenile portion of that animal. For instance placing down Coral Snakes by juvenile jackrabbit populations. Coral Snake are too small to eat adult jackrabbits, but they can keep feeding on their younglings. I used this strategy across my entire biodome, so I normally have a weird point of the game where I have low level predators (coral snakes) and 2-3 different species of prey animals all across my biodome with fauna. After that though ,I do find it hard to balance apex predators in 1.9, but that's what we hope to fix with 1.10 when we introduce hunt failures! :D

[insane.tobi]

Odd suggestion that just came to mind... could you make hunt failures scale with the amount of prey animals? What I mean is... make a hunt more likely to succeed if there is abundant prey and less likely to succeed if there are only a few edible animals left? That way, you could possibly end up with a proper predator-prey curve?

On topic... there are some very prolific creatures (like rabbits and deer mice) that I end up throwing predators at a few weeks before their reproduction, so the amount of juveniles is already slightly reduced, but the group is not rendered entirely infertile before they can breed. Obviously, the larger animals need more time, as a group size of, say, six animals doesn't quite warrant getting five killed before giving birth. Alotuz' suggestion works fine, too, although the tiny snakes don't seem to serve as the frog killer I need.

[Immersed Games]

Forwarded to Alotuz for consideration. Thanks Tobi! :)

[Alotuz]

Hey insane.tobi! This is definitely not an odd solution at all. If I didn't know any better I'd say that you read my mind on this subject as this was my initial suggestion to address predator prey balance. While this may seem simple, it's actually quite complicated according to the programming team, so this probably won't find itself for 1.10. That being said, proper predator prey balancing is a key goal for this patch, and we'll do our best to do so. I'll take another look at frogs. I think I've already nerfed their values for this patch, but at this point I'd much rather undershoot their reproductive abilities.

[insane.tobi]

Well, I haven't placed any new frogs yet, but the old groups I still had have been giving me enough trouble as is. Suppose I'll let them starve, that'll teach 'em. Speaking of the patch, my version still says 1.9.0, and I don't think Tyto Ecology updated since 1.9.0 for me either. Is Steam messing stuff up again?

Also there's a lot more one could throw in for predator/prey balance, but this suggestion was the only one that seemed feasible to me as someone who knows extremely little about coding, as well as one that seemed to lead to a proper balancing. Other things I thought of would include modifiers for age (more experience = better chance to either kill or evade, depending on which side the critter finds itself), or even a bonus for certain more agile species, or something really odd for things like prairie dogs and other burrowing creatures: make hunts more likely to fail the closer the creature is to the center of the territory (assuming there is only one burrow entrance for simplicity). Modified survival chance the closer the breeding time is, or if juveniles are in the group (mothers can be ferocious!)...

While all those things might be rather complex to include, I'm not entirely sure it would be worth adding them for the sake of a predator-prey balance, as it would not really ensure a healthy curve there as far as I can see it. It might, however, help secure a certain prey baseline.

By the way, can you already tell how hunting failure affects the predator? Will the predator try again on the same animal in x days? Will it try to hunt another animal of that species? Will it decide for a random other animal? Will it have to rest for a while after a failed hunt?

[mbiggiani]

Originally posted by insane.tobi:

Well, I haven't placed any new frogs yet, but the old groups I still had have been giving me enough trouble as is. Suppose I'll let them starve, that'll teach 'em. Speaking of the patch, my version still says 1.9.0, and I don't think Tyto Ecology updated since 1.9.0 for me either. Is Steam messing stuff up again?

Also there's a lot more one could throw in for predator/prey balance, but this suggestion was the only one that seemed feasible to me as someone who knows extremely little about coding, as well as one that seemed to lead to a proper balancing. Other things I thought of would include modifiers for age (more experience = better chance to either kill or evade, depending on which side the critter finds itself), or even a bonus for certain more agile species, or something really odd for things like prairie dogs and other burrowing creatures: make hunts more likely to fail the closer the creature is to the center of the territory (assuming there is only one burrow entrance for simplicity). Modified survival chance the closer the breeding time is, or if juveniles are in the group (mothers can be ferocious!)...

While all those things might be rather complex to include, I'm not entirely sure it would be worth adding them for the sake of a predator-prey balance, as it would not really ensure a healthy curve there as far as I can see it. It might, however, help secure a certain prey baseline.

By the way, can you already tell how hunting failure affects the predator? Will the predator try again on the same animal in x days? Will it try to hunt another animal of that species? Will it decide for a random other animal? Will it have to rest for a while after a failed hunt?

I think you might still be in the 1.9.0 beta branch LOL. You have to go back to the normal version for it to update. I know, its wierd.

[insane.tobi]

Ah, thanks. I thought the beta would update itself once the proper version comes out.

[Alotuz]

With regards to your Tyto Ecology version, I suspect what mbiggiani might say is likely the case. Make sure to go back to the regular branch. If you need help with that let me know and I'll write some instructions for ya.

An idea I played around with is having a survival rating for each animal, but as you said that wouldn't fix the main problem of guaranteeing the curve that we're looking for. Ideally the ecosystem AI acknowledges when there's a surplus of prey animals making it easier for predators to hunt and vice versa. The programming team wil try their best to accomplish this, I will say below how it currently works.

Predators in TE 1.10 have a chance to fail their hunt. This chance is based on the size difference of an animal. A mountain lion hunting a jackrabbit will have a higher chance of success than a bobcats hunting the same jackrabbit. Also a tough animal is harder to be hunted. If a hungry bobcat fails hunt a target, for now, they will instantly try and go for another random target. We've though of incorporating cooldowns on hunting and limit it once per day. My concern is that users might be frustrated at seeing their hungry bobcat, who has failed their hunting for the day, mope around instead of trying again. A thought is to maybe have a UI element that shows that the predator has already attempted to hunt for the day.

What are your thoughts on the matter guys? :)

[mbiggiani]

Originally posted by Alotuz:

With regards to your Tyto Ecology version, I suspect what mbiggiani might say is likely the case. Make sure to go back to the regular branch. If you need help with that let me know and I'll write some instructions for ya.

An idea I played around with is having a survival rating for each animal, but as you said that wouldn't fix the main problem of guaranteeing the curve that we're looking for. Ideally the ecosystem AI acknowledges when there's a surplus of prey animals making it easier for predators to hunt and vice versa. The programming team wil try their best to accomplish this, I will say below how it currently works.

Predators in TE 1.10 have a chance to fail their hunt. This chance is based on the size difference of an animal. A mountain lion hunting a jackrabbit will have a higher chance of success than a bobcast hunting the same jackrabbit. Also a tough animal is harder to be hunted. If a hungry bobcat fails hunt a target. For now, they will instantly try and go for another random target. We've though of incorporating cooldowns on hunting and limit it once per day. My concern is that users might be frustrated at seeing their hungry bobcat, who has failed their hunting for the day, mope around instead of trying again. A thought is to maybe have a UI element that shows that the predator has already attempted to hunt for the day.

What are your thoughts on the matter guys? :)

I like that idea. When you click on a predator, like the bobcat, it could say in its UI "1 day till next hunt" or something like that.

[Alotuz]

The issue with having something like "1 day till next hunt" is that predators randomly start their first hunt after eating a meal anywhere between 65%-80%. It's up to the whim of the predator to decide when they want to start eating! So it would probably be something more along the lines of: "Is tired from hunting" or "Has already hunted for the day."