Nightmare difficulty question

[Whateverman]

I saw the blurb about losing a card, and I thought "no way in hell". Few things in video games annoy me more than spending effort to obtain and upgrade something, then permanently losing it in a cheap death. A difficulty where I choose to risk this? Count me out.

And then I started chasing achievmentds, and thought "OK, I'll try it".

Yup, cheap death, and I lost a card that was crucial to keeping my warrior alive. Only - it disappeared from the list of cards I had equipped, but I was able to go back into my inventory and add it back.

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My question is: do you actually permanently lose cards when you die (on Nightmare / Massacre difficulties)? It's possible that I simply lost a variant and was able to add back one of the other remaining variants, but I don't think this is what happened (for several reasons I wont bother listing)

[Darkness]

Yes, you can lose an equipped variant permanently, so that you'll need to find it and upgrade it again.

[Whateverman]

Originally posted by Darkness:

Yes, you can lose an equipped variant permanently, so that you'll need to find it and upgrade it again.

Well then I probably lost a legendary variant. Awesome.

I guessed otherwise, because I was able re-equip the card already fully upgraded. I don't usually fully upgrade two variants, but this was probably an exception,

Thanks for the feedback...

[Konstanty]

Originally posted by Whateverman:

My question is: do you actually permanently lose cards when you die (on Nightmare / Massacre difficulties)? It's possible that I simply lost a variant and was able to add back one of the other remaining variants, but I don't think this is what happened (for several reasons I wont bother listing)

It's not permanent though. You will eventually find that legend again :-)

[Magnnus]

I get what you mean when you say its not permanent, but from an emotional, human, perspective, the card or legendary one worked hard for and has fond memories of is lost forever. You can find another version of it, but the original is forever gone. Finding it again may just remind you of what was lost, it won't be a good feeling.

Personally, I think such drastic loss should be kept for roguelike mode. Difficulty should just change how difficult the game is, not how punishing loss is. Otherwise, you disincentivize people from playing a difficulty they find fun, and the game becomes a boring grind.

[Darkness]

Originally posted by Magnnus:

You can find another version of it, but the original is forever gone

Agreed, I've always stated that the loss is permanent, specially considering it can take lots of hours to find the same card again, and it'll be level 1, so all invested is lost. Actually it's possible that you'll never find it again - if you keep dying and losing other cards as well, for instance.

I guess saying the loss is not permanent is like (beware, stupid example) if the Archdemon kills my dog, and then say "Sorry! But hey, you may eventually find another dog that's looks like your old dog and behaves likes it, so just put the same name on it".

I lost a few cool legendaries on my rogue, and still never found a replacement for them with quite a few hours played after that (and many other legendaries found).

[Magnnus]

Originally posted by Konstanty:

Originally posted by Whateverman:

My question is: do you actually permanently lose cards when you die (on Nightmare / Massacre difficulties)? It's possible that I simply lost a variant and was able to add back one of the other remaining variants, but I don't think this is what happened (for several reasons I wont bother listing)

It's not permanent though. You will eventually find that legend again :-)

If you are intent on keeping card loss as a mechanic, may I suggest a change that could create a more positive experience for the player? Rather than the player finding a new copy of that card, let the player find re-find their actual lost card. Give the player a much higher than normal chance to find the card that was lost, make it identified and at the same upgrade level. Include different graphics and animation so it is clear that the player is finding *their* card, not just a new card. You could re-use the anti-pope lost card graphics.

[Whateverman]

I've gotten used to the idea of permanent card loss. On some level, it DOES add a sense of... ugency? fear? to the game, which is a good thing on upper difficulty levels. While I wouldn't say I *like* this aspect of the game, I'm willing to put up with it.

HOWEVER...

I dislike (intensely) the achievments which put you at geater risk of permanent card loss than you'd experience during normal (nightmare/massacre) gameplay.

For example, "Predator" requires that you finish a Big Nightmare game without any form of healing. Death isn't guaranteed, but without healing, you're going to have a tough time not dying. "Birthday Suit" is even worse, in that you have to finish a Medium Nightmare game without intentionally choosing/equipping any cards - which is effectively a guarantor of death.

In Diablo, "Hardcore" mode presented the possibility of permanent (character) loss, and I think that's an option in THIS game some people will like. Heck, play the game long enough, and I'm pretty sure everyone will come to enjoy it to some extent. The End Game in Book of Demons, though, is mostly about chasing achievments (or Leaderboard rank), so achievments which come close to requiring permanent loss are a real downer for me.

Just my 2cp

[Darkness]

Originally posted by Whateverman:

I've gotten used to the idea of permanent card loss. On some level, it DOES add a sense of... ugency? fear? to the game, which is a good thing on upper difficulty levels. While I wouldn't say I *like* this aspect of the game, I'm willing to put up with it.

I agree on certain point, but it feels like it's something "too hardcore" for a "midcore game". Honestly, I feel like losing the cauldron rewards is punishing enough. Still, got used to it, just makes me behave safer than I'd like to, so less fun for me.

Originally posted by Whateverman:

I dislike (intensely) the achievments which put you at geater risk of permanent card loss than you'd experience during normal (nightmare/massacre) gameplay.

I think most of the achievements were set up prior to many systems in the game, like card variants, imposed cards, cursed cards, and (I think) permanent card loss.

[Stache]

For some reason, this discussion reminded me of Hollow Knight, where fragile orbs would get damaged on death, requiring repair before using them again.
Just thinking out loud, maybe repairing "broken" card with gold & rune cards would be a sufficient punishment?
In that case player both has to cover the costs, so death has weight, but also keeps the hard-earned card.

[Magnnus]

I hope the devs keep an eye on this can consider changing card loss.

I would like to challenge myself more, but the idea of playing on Massacre simply doesn't make me happy with the current card loss mechanics.

[Konstanty]

We are keeping an eye but so far that mechanic is working well. Loss of a variant is not a hugen penaty as usually the player has at least few other variants of the same card. It disencourages use of legends, though (unless the player has all the legends in which case that legend will drop again soon).

[Darkness]

Originally posted by Konstanty:

We are keeping an eye but so far that mechanic is working well. Loss of a variant is not a hugen penaty as usually the player has at least few other variants of the same card. It disencourages use of legends, though (unless the player has all the legends in which case that legend will drop again soon).

I just feel people should "sign" for this mechanic, since it's a permanent loss. I mean, it's not like Imposed cards that actually have a meaning within the game to avoid monotony. Permanent loss just add to risk, but doesn't itself increase rewards. Honestly I liked the idea above that "broke" them and allowed you to restore them with lots of gold, may be a nice in-between.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever checked any Soldak game (Din's Curse, Drox Operative, Zombasite are the ones I tried)? It has a really cool "multiple check" for extra unique penalties on character creation, so there's a highly modular character difficulty in case you want an extra challenge, and on top of that, every time you start a "flexiscope" (yes, they actually have something really close to your idea, but even more complete, just not focused on time/reward calculus itself) there're also lots of modular options to define the challege.

Anyway, I wonder if it's possible/viable to create a modular difficulty to work sort of like in an RPG character sheet that has disadvantages and advantages, you know, disadvantages giving points, advantages spending points, and you have to level them.

So we could have:

"Disadvantages"
- equipped cards drop on body +1
- bosses curse cards +2
- imposed cards +2
- permanent card loss on death +3
"Advantages"
- bonus to magic find
- bonus do experience gain
- bonus to legendary find
- bonus to gold drop

Funny thing is I never thought of it so modular like this, and actually the name kinda fits the "Free play" name too well in my mind.

But the idea itself reminds me of an old suggestion I had of "bets", but I thought of them back then to be more random and totally optional to opt-in (like a bet with a fixed card set and permanent card loss to face 2 levels and kill all bosses, and get a spell legendary card as rewad).

[Magnnus]

Originally posted by Konstanty:

We are keeping an eye but so far that mechanic is working well. Loss of a variant is not a hugen penaty as usually the player has at least few other variants of the same card. It disencourages use of legends, though (unless the player has all the legends in which case that legend will drop again soon).

You might not see card loss as a huge penalty, but to players like me, it is literally the worst penalty you can possibly have (other than permadeath). That isn't a hyperbole. I literally cannot think of anything worse than losing the hard earned items that I have an emotional attachment to. And this that is still taking into account that you can find a new version of that lost card.

I am also not sure why you see discouraging use of a players preferred variants as a positive. What is the point of adding legendaries and magical cards with multiple effects if you are only going to discourage the player from using them in endgame (where dedicated players spend most of their time)? Why should I keep playing the game and trying to find better loot if the game discourages me from using it?

[Konstanty]

We would have to add "damaging" card along with all the variants for this to work... and it might work.

However, we won't be adding or changing any major mechanics before launch. We have packed schedule for everyone on the team if we want to do the launch properly so the feature freeze is in effect. Stuff like this won't be forgotten though, we will come back to it and maybe squeeze it into the post-launch roadmap.

[Whateverman]

Sounds good. Thanks again for the feedback, Konstanty