I like the chapter titles that were chosen

[Tarka]

Some good references to famous 'western' SF.

[gialzirou]

Yes, all the titles is Unlimited followed a similar pattern. I believe the episode titles are all/mostly SF novel titles. I also think it's pretty neat, when one culture effectively adapts elements from another. It makes me wonder if that theme went over the heads of most japanese readers, or if many got it. I wasn't familiar with many of the titles myself, but I noticed enough to pick up on the pattern. It would be even neater if elements from within those novels applied, but I'm leaning toward how they were good titles for that episode borrowed from SF.

[Tarka]

Originally posted by gialzirou:

It would be even neater if elements from within those novels applied, but I'm leaning toward how they were good titles for that episode borrowed from SF.

In some cases, elements do apply.

For instance, two references to Arthur C Clarke stories:

The last chapter of Unlimited is named after a novel in which one faction consists of the last survivors of an unspecified apocalypse on Earth.

The first chapter of Alternative is named after a short story about a device which allows the user to see into (but not visit) other times and places, anywhere in the multiverse.

Originally posted by gialzirou:

It makes me wonder if that theme went over the heads of most japanese readers, or if many got it.

Arthur C Clarke and Frederick Pohl were apparently both quite popular and widely read in Japan.

[gialzirou]

The more you know :) Thanks for those details. I'm not surprised, given the quality of the work.

I knew Clarke featured prominently, but wasn't sure how much. I might have to look a few of these stories up. The writing definitely implies the author is familiar with hard science concepts of space travel, and likely some hard science fiction which doesn't handwave details into the story which contradict known science. Muv Luv doesn't qualify for this, but it gives nods to the slit experiment , lagrange points which are hard science, and Everett's many worlds interpretation and Laplace's demon, which are not, but are well known theories. (Quantum theory does seem to indicate that Laplace's demon does not exist.)

Clarke is also well known for popularizing the idea of geostationary orbit, including giving specific details on how it's done. That's the reason satellites exist. An instance where science fiction predates science fact. I've heard he didn't patent the idea because the patent would have expired before humanity was able to develop the technology to put it into practice (making it meaningless), though I also heard a report that he also wasn't interested in being sued by vested individuals.

Either way, many things that are true now started as an idea in fiction, which later inspired real scientists to find a solution.

[Tarka]

Originally posted by gialzirou:

The writing definitely implies the author is familiar with hard science concepts of space travel, and likely some hard science fiction which doesn't handwave details into the story which contradict known science.

Heh, one review of Muv-Luv that I read criticised the series for 'pretending to be hard sf'. A better way to put it might be that it is internally consistent and sticks to the rules it sets itself. It's amusing to see how Alternative revisits a lot of the quirky features of Unlimited such as semi-transparent pilot's suits for the girls but not Takeru, which could be grounds to condemn it as mindless and generic, and comes up with explanations that are not only valid but in fact quite thought-provoking.

If asked to choose a 'western' sf novel or series to compare with Muv-Luv as a whole (excepting the universe-hopping protagonist part), personally I would say that it has parralels with The Forever War (which takes an interesting if rather uncomfortable approach to dealing with sex and relationships in a mixed-gender army).

As an aside, note that Clarke's work relied entirely on setting and concept to be successful, with characters that by modern standards were so awful as to actually get in the way of the story.

[gialzirou]

That's a pretty good synopsis. To be fair, most characters from Clarke's time were just cudgels or placeholders to get a point across. Especially in hard SF, it is rare to have really good characters. For many authors, the science seems to be the real star. I will have to look up the forever war.

Originally posted by author:

Heh, one review of Muv-Luv that I read criticised the series for 'pretending to be hard sf'. A better way to put it might be that it is internally consistent and sticks to the rules it sets itself.

I think the best way to describe muv luv is your second sentence. Internal consistency goes a long way to giving the story a credibility it might not otherwise have. The fact it is very scrupulous about this as well as having a shared universe goes a long way to give it a level of credibility most fiction does not even attempt. For me, it's a large part of its appeal. Even where we are not given full explanations for everything (because the characters themselves are not sure), we're given enough information to be able to figure it out ourselves. This is only possible to the degree it is, because the author never cheats past the rules of the world they've created (well maybe at the very end, just a little:)

It obviously can't be hard SF because dimension/time traveling doesn't exist according to current scientific knowledge. It's like Star Trek warp drives, you just have to accept it and not worry about the details.

Muv Luv was originally meant to be a single trilogy. So elements in Extra that tied to alternative were probably known from earlier on. My best guess is the actual design for the BETA was developed and clarified in the years between the the release of Extra/Unlimited and Alternative.

I'm not sure if Muv luv qualifies as a deconstruction of the Visual novel medium, but that's how I think of it. The writing is so good that at times the text changes due to small variations in the series of choices made or whether you've accessed certain scenarios. If you never have lunch with tama, etc. that memory will not be available in Unlimited/Alternative. In other cases, the text remains the same, even though the past details have changed-and it still makes sense-which is even more surprising. I blew past Extra as quick as possible, but even then I noticed how self aware the writing was. In certain scenarios, the behavior of certain characters is called out as inappropriate/abnormal.

After I read Alternative again and was surprised that things I considered evidence that the writer was shoehorning elements into the story just to move the plot along, actually made more sense in the totality of the work than I accepted at the time.

I also accepted the ingame arguments for why the girls were dressed the way they were. I had grown fond of the characters by that point, and like Takeru, it made an impression the first time. But by the time, I reread it, it seemed silly that the characters felt embarrassed, or that I had ever reacted to it. The game did a good job anticipating how a reader might react and addressing it intelligently. I was completely on Meiya's side in Unlimited during the mount tengen arc, only to set myself up for a left hook from Shizue's valid criticism, more effective because she isn't aiming it at anyone in particular.

Does choice matter? Takeru in Extra was a lighthearted guy who adapted to the qualities of whatever girl you chose. Consequences were minor. Choices in Unlimited were a bit more consequential, but ultimately, everything was sandboxed within a relatively safe environment. Only one choice in Alternative really matters. But it doesn't change things much. On the one hand, all choices matter. The game keeps track of certain choices across titles. Unlike most visual novels, the non cannon endings are not discarded, or waved away. Accessing one characters scenario doesn't close off interactions or the stories of the others completely. They are still in the background, in a different point of view.

[s_salmon2005]

I originally read Extra because I heard Muv Luv had Starship Troopers influence. It took a while to set in, but boy when it did...

[Liberius]

Yeh, The Starship Troopers influence is very strong. Rico never seems too bothered by casualties in the novel...He's just matter of fact about it IIRC. Shirogane/MLA is like a foil to Rico/Starship Troopers. Both of them are fighting similar enemies, but in MLA you are losing the war, there is a consistent looming despair as a result and Shirogane's main challenge is trying to figure out how to deal with himself in such a horrible situation. In Starship Troopers, the Terran Federation is winning the war for most of the book, and thus the book is more focused on Rico's advancement through the ranks and how he leads members of his platoon.

Starship Troopers ends with the reader thinking "I want to know more". MLA ends with the reader thinking "Thank God Shirogane escaped Hell, I couldn't take much more punishment"

[Tarka]

I compared Muv-Luv to The Forever War because The Forever War is basically the same story as Starship Troopers but ideologically the opposite; 'War is Hell' rather than 'Battle for Glory'. It is much less well known than ST because nobody ever tried to make a movie of it.