I tried getting into this, and failed. Should I try again?

[Virtual Ocean Horizon]

for those who don't want to eat a rant, tl;dr version:
I tried getting into Muv Luv already and failed, hard. The renewed hype around the game has perked my interest again, but I don't want to read the first game again, and I don't really want to try reading the second game again either. Should I give up on Muv Luv, then?


FULL RANT VERSION:

CAUTION, this isn't the typical "is muv luv worth it thread." I've already TRIED, several years ago, to get into Muv Luv and failed, burning and screaming. You can still see residual hatred and frustration through my poor words here. I expected a rich story about military science fiction; what I got was the most generic, bare-bones slice of life romance visual ever followed by a what is essentially a glorified universe lecture with some hints of mystery without any smidgen of attempt to introduce it to the reader in an engaging way; extreme disappointment was had. EXTREME. Don't get me wrong, I ENJOY science fiction, I love military science fiction... but... ♥♥♥♥ guys, I couldn't do it. But I might want to do it again. ♥♥♥♥ me.


1) Played Extra. I will disclose that I went into it expecting something pretty good, considering all the hype I heard around Muv Luv. What did I get? The worst ♥♥♥♥ing video game AND piece of literature I have literally ever experienced in my entire life. I got more out of attempting to play games like E.T., InvertMouse games, and... yeah I'm running dry on ideas here, but point is, I rank Muv Luv Extra really, really low on my rankings when it comes to literature or games. I think this game scarred me so bad that for a while it gave me a predisposition to judge, at first glance, every slice of life romance visual novel as garbage.
2) Well, I got through it. Took more way more time than I would have liked. Everyone said it got better from here! I tried the sequel, Unlimited. Yet, after the cancerfest of the first game, I expected something in the second game to make up for it; after two hours, I gave up searching for redemption and dropped it like a rock. Unlimited is very, and I mean VERY dry for a game that is trying to explain its universe. Don't get me wrong, I love detailed, interesting universes, but not detailed boring ones.

So, I had enough of the pain. I came to the conclusion that Alternative simply could not be worth the pain I had gone through. But even freaking still I see all the hype this game gets, I simply cannot shake the feeling that maybe there is something to this Muv Luv thing.

Is the game REALLY worth the pain? Don't answer from your own experience unless you've had a similar experience to my own. I really don't want to have to try playing the first two games again. I'm not a patient person. I will not read through hours and hours of pain for something great. I want a piece of literature to be consistently interesting, at the very least, throughout most of my time spent reading it. Does this mean Muv Luv is not for me? This may be a silly question, but please be honest and help me get this off my chest.


edit: please note that pain here is a metaphor for intense displeasure and or disgust.

[ricemonkey]

Steins;Gate is another Visual Novel turned Anime that starts out notoriously slow and turns many casually interested people off to the point that they don't finish it because it doesn't get intereesting enough quickly enough.

Clannad is another Visual Novel turned Anime that starts out notoriously slow and turns many casually interested people off to the point that they don't finish it because it doesn't get intereesting enough quickly enough.

You mention literature. Same with the very beginning of the first Harry Potter book. I can't tell you how many kids I knew when the 1st Harry Potter book came out simple said they could not read it because it was too boring to start with.

Extra purposefully and consciously runs through every stereotypical slice-of-life VN trope imaginable to the point where it's almost parody. If this is your first Visual Novel what you find obnoxious is most likely the result of these expected references sailing way over your head.

Not being aware that there was a genre switch upcoming, or made Unlimited an unexpected ride. You went from 'oh here's another dime-a-dozen VN' to 'wtf is going on'. It seems like you had the opposite expectations and experience and that coloured your opinion heavily. It also seems like you've never played a Visual Novel before.

Honestly, if you're not a patient person, if you're not willing to put in the time for character building and emotional set up, masterpieces simply aren't for you. In cinema The Godfather really doesn't start picking up until around 30 minutes in. Really if you're the type of person who can't make it through those first 30 minutes of establishment before reaching the action then this is not the Visual Novel for you.

Many people have expressed the same opinion as you only to say that Alternative's payout made everyuthing worht it. But that commitment initially is admittedly much higher in the form of two entire VN's, and from your personality it seems you simply aren't patient enough. If you are interested in Visual Novels as a concept I suggest trying out many more before you come back to Muv-Luv.

[STORM VANGUARD ONE]

In my opinion, the best thing of Muv-Luv Trilogy is not it's story, nor the technical stuffs. I mean, it's not like the story and other technical stuffs is bad (it's still one of the best for me), but it's not what makes the trilogy a masterpiece.

Instead, the best part of is is how the developer able to mix those stuff to deliver immersion/ emotional experience unlike any other (at least to my experience). Which is why you might read people fainted when playing Alternative, PTSDs, even me and my friends need few weeks to get back to our 'normal life'. All of this which I think can only be achieved if you play the trilogy in order, enjoy it, and take your time (unlike playing or even skimming through them just for the sake of alternative). It can go to like losing someone important in Muv-Luv Alternative feels like losing someone important to you in real life (I'm serious).

But it's not like you won't enjoy Alternative without the first 2 games. Some of my friend only played a bit of extra then skipped to Alternative, some of them even went straight to Alternative but they still call it one of the best VN they've played.

IMO the best way to enjoy the trilogy is with no prior expectation and spoilers. Just like how the game first launched in Japan. At first they thought Muv-Luv is only consist of Extra (school romcom and such). Then they surprised to see there is Unlimited after they finished Extra, how the story really differs yet kinda the same, not to mention the ending. Then few years passed Muv-Luv Alternative came and became one of most highly acclaimed VN ever.

Bottom line, Muv-Luv Alternative is a great game and a great finale, pretty much everyone said that. It's not like you won't enjoy it without playing the first new game, tho you will get a lot more from it if you played the first 2 game first.

Oh also I heard the team did a lot work to the script making it a lot more enjoyable than the old one. Hopefully it is.

[Virtual Ocean Horizon]

@ricemonkey

Okay, really really bad examples that I almost entirely disagree with, on top of some silly assumptions on your part that I'm just going to ignore. Your last paragraph though, in all that irrelevant wall you posted, gives me a less than satisfactory answer, but an answer I'll take nonetheless. Of course, its not like I didn't already know that.

response grade: 2/5


@STORM VANGUARD ONE

Thank you very much for the informative post! That was exactly the kind of answer I neeeded. I guess I'll keep my eyes peeled then.

response grade: 5/5

[VDZ]

I couldn't get through Extra (and dropped it rather quickly, in fact), and to this day still haven't played MLA because of how terrible Extra is.

Originally posted by ricemonkey:

Steins;Gate is another Visual Novel turned Anime that starts out notoriously slow and turns many casually interested people off to the point that they don't finish it because it doesn't get intereesting enough quickly enough.

Clannad is another Visual Novel turned Anime that starts out notoriously slow and turns many casually interested people off to the point that they don't finish it because it doesn't get intereesting enough quickly enough.

I loved Steins;Gate and Clannad, and in fact I like Clannad's common route better than most routes, and the School Life part more than After Story. I loved Steins;Gate's early story about a bunch of nerds tinkering with a time machine and discovering the dark side of SERN.

The big difference between Extra and the likes of Clannad, Steins;Gate and many other 'slow' visual novels, is that the buildup itself is interesting and enjoyable to read on its own. A boring buildup is like reading the rules to a board game; to some extent I will tolerate it because it can lead to a lot of fun (Umineko started out boring too), but like with super-thick rulebooks, I'm not going to waste tons of my time reading something I dislike just because of the promise of something awesome at the end. I don't have that much free time. (It's even worse for me because I'm a slow reader.)

Originally posted by ricemonkey:

Extra purposefully and consciously runs through every stereotypical slice-of-life VN trope imaginable to the point where it's almost parody.

'Almost' being the key word here. Some people think that a good way to make fun of something is to directly repeat what is bad about it; some find it humorous enough to call that "parody". But when you completely repeat the dullest, most boring stuff high school romance VNs have to offer as a self-aware imitation of those stories...you are still a dull extremely boring high school romance story. I have no doubt it was made to mimic generic VNs (particularly from back then) and I have no doubt the staff was well-aware of the common tropes in the medium and consciously used them, but they did nothing to make the story interesting in spite of how generic it is.

Originally posted by ricemonkey:

If this is your first Visual Novel what you find obnoxious is most likely the result of these expected references sailing way over your head.

My VNDB played list currently indicates that I've played, at least in part, 122 visual novels, though it's not entirely up-to-date. For me, it's the exact opposite. I love good slice-of-life, and I don't dislike school settings at all. As such, I find Extra's bland imitation to be an insult to the genre. You call it a parody, but a parody exposes the weaknesses of a work or genre by juxtaposing it with elements generally not found in that work of genre. If Extra is genuinely a parody, it entirely fails at its job as it's the same thing it 'parodies' but worse (a fate one could certainly avoid if they were aware of the potential weaknesses of the work).

Originally posted by ricemonkey:

Honestly, if you're not a patient person, if you're not willing to put in the time for character building and emotional set up, masterpieces simply aren't for you. In cinema The Godfather really doesn't start picking up until around 30 minutes in. Really if you're the type of person who can't make it through those first 30 minutes of establishment before reaching the action then this is not the Visual Novel for you.

30 minutes of buildup I can stand, even if it's really boring. But if I take a look at Extra's script size (from TLWiki) and extrapolate from how long I took to read Fate/stay night, it would take me 43 HOURS to read through all of Extra. Of course, everybody skips the majority of the Extra routes and only reads the important ones, so we could significantly reduce the amount of time required, but I doubt I'll be finished in under 20 hours. And that's just for Extra; there is currently no indication I will even like Unlimited.

I'll read dozens of hours of buildup if it's interesting enough, even if there's no payoff at the end. But if I have to trudge through a mind-numbingly boring story for at least 20 freaking hours, plus potentially that all over again if Unlimited is not for me, I'll at the very least need an absolute guarantee that it'll be life-changing.

[Virtual Ocean Horizon]

@VDZ well said, you outline it very well. I'm also a slow reader. Cheers, man.

[Karifean]

30 minutes of buildup I can stand, even if it's really boring. But if I take a look at Extra's script size (from TLWiki) and extrapolate from how long I took to read Fate/stay night, it would take me 43 HOURS to read through all of Extra. Of course, everybody skips the majority of the Extra routes and only reads the important ones, so we could significantly reduce the amount of time required, but I doubt I'll be finished in under 20 hours.

As you said the two main Extra routes are the only necessary ones, but even further than that you really only need to read *one* route since Sumika and Meiya route overlap for 90% of their content. If you play Meiya route you can just save at the final choice, read both endings and you're done.

Unlimited is much the same. There aren't even any routes, the only thing that actually changes is which girl you romance in the last chapter, and it doesn't affect the story any further. If you've read one, you've read them all.

And if you really don't like the idea of 'leaving things unfinished', keep in mind that you can always come back to Extra after finishing the trilogy. You'll probably even end up appreciating the extra Extra routes a lot more that way.

[A Guy With Glasses]

If you failed the first time, second time won't be much better. Most people's concern are that the first two novels are rather bland and uninteresting while the counterargument provides that reading the first two novels will SIGNIFICANTLY improve your enjoyment of Alternative. (alternative is the masterpiece that has garnered muv-luv its large fanbase) However is drudging through over 30 hours of playtime of unimpressive dialogue worth it for Alternative. I feel that the full length of the Extra and Unlimited novels is too much to be worthwhile, but a smaller portion of the novels would definitely be a valuable time and effort commitment. I'd say it would be best to alleviate trope heavy characters in Extra and the rather frivolous parts of Unlimited through an abridged version. There currently exists no abridged version (I would totally pay for one).

To my best judgement, my recommendation is to abridge the process yourself. I'd advise to skip over EVERYTHING Takeru says in Extra (both internal monologues and external dialogues) and only read the female casts's dialogue up until the end of the sports festival arc. Then you can skip most of the text until you reach the hot springs arc. The original point of Extra was to garner emotional atachment to the female cast and the world they live in. Elsewise the novel is filled with generic high school romance tropes. The exception is to choose to read Takeru's dialogue and thoughts for the sports festival arc and to go through the individual arcs for your favoritie heroines. Otherwise you can wiki the backgrounds to each character.

For Unlimited, the method is reversed as you can ignore most of the main heroine dialogue and instead focus on everyone else. Unlimited is cheesy in its own way, but Unlimited provides some (limited) character growth for Takeru and has sci-fi world building for Alternative. Read as much of the sci-fi and the pseudo-world history you can. There are some serious and philisophical moments in Unlimited, but those events are scattered and few. Takeru, Marimo, and Yuuko. For exceptions, you can choose to read most of the non-romantic-cliche dialogue during the field test arc. All the character backgrounds in Unlimited are parallels to the scenarios in Extra, but nonetheless each heroine is given their own arc in Unlimied. Again, it's not fully necessary, but you can choose to read through the fluffy parts your favorite heroines' arcs. Otherwise, a wiki summary for most of the events that occur could work just fine.

Overall, you can just read as much of the novels as you feel is necessary to have a general understanding of the main cast's pesrsonalities, habits, and backgrounds. Know as much as you can about the politics, history, and sci-fi of the world in Unlimited as you can. All that should make it feels as if these two lackluster reads were worthwile in making your Alternative experience as great as it could be.

[Virtual Ocean Horizon]

Originally posted by isuyou:

I'd say it would be best to alleviate trope heavy characters in Extra and the rather frivolous parts of Unlimited through an abridged version. There currently exists no abridged version (I would totally pay for one).

I would be so on board for that. I heard that they are supposedly rewriting some of the game for this new release? Something from the kickstarter and whispers here and there. It'd be nice if said "rewrite" was indeed an abridged version.

[A Guy With Glasses]

Originally posted by Zeream:

I would be so on board for that. I heard that they are supposedly rewriting some of the game for this new release? Something from the kickstarter and whispers here and there. It'd be nice if said "rewrite" was indeed an abridged version.

Well they didn't release an abridged version. I was just providing a suggestion as to a better method on how to read the full novel so it doesn't feel as tedious/painful.
But if anyone did release an abridged version, I feel as if that would be a great way to attract players who are not already familiar with the franchise.

[_]

Originally posted by Zeream:

I would be so on board for that. I heard that they are supposedly rewriting some of the game for this new release? Something from the kickstarter and whispers here and there. It'd be nice if said "rewrite" was indeed an abridged version.

I'm one of the people who's been working on the script (as well as a moderator here), so I can talk about that. The tl;dr is that we haven't rewritten the orignal creator's Japanese script, nor have we changed the story at all (that wouldn't be the true Muv-Luv experience, and would be disrespectful to the orignal creator), but we have significantly improved the English translation.

The script was originally based on the old fan translation, with permission from the individuals who worked on it, and the orignal plan when the Kickstarter went live was to rework it to professional levels and then release the updated version here, on Steam. We changed our minds on that though, and for good reason.

While working on it, it became apparent that the fan translation wasn't up to our standards for an official release. To get it to where we wanted it, we put it through very thorough translation-checking and multiple rounds of edits. The result is that most of the script has been redone almost from scratch, and reads way better than the fan-translated version. It's also a much more accurate translation, and truer to the vision of the original creator. We're very proud of it, and we can't wait for you guys to read it.

So it hasn't been abridged, but it has been updated, and that's what you've been hearing about.

[A Guy With Glasses]

Originally posted by Ambigravity:

I'm one of the people who's been working on the script (as well as a moderator here), so I can talk about that. The tl;dr is that we haven't rewritten the orignal creator's Japanese script, nor have we changed the story at all (that wouldn't be the true Muv-Luv experience, and would be disrespectful to the orignal creator), but we have significantly improved the English translation.


So it hasn't been abridged, but it has been updated, and that's what you've been hearing about.

Thanks so much for the information!

[Falcalor]

Let me put it this way. When I first read Muv Luv, it took me months to slog through extra because I just couldn't stay interested in ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ lacrosse. Unlimited I played somewhat bemusedly over a week or so. It was alright, but nothing great.

When I hit Alternative I couldn't put it down or go to sleep. I stayed up for nearly 72 hours straight, and didn't put it down for anything. I was an emotional wreck afterwards. It was one of the most moving experiences I ever had (though I think sleep deprivation did factor into it)

Some people disagree. But I certainly think it's a pretty damn good payoff. Try it again, starting from Unlimited. Maybe without the slog of Extra you won't be so down on it.

[dongaro]

Well I was having difficulty getting unlimitted to run back in the day, and so I finally skipped staight to alternative. Did my experience suffer slightly? Maybe. Did I decide that ALternative was amazing and that because of it I now like Extra? Yes. Originally I didn't care for extra, but playing alternative stright after I loved all three. Personally if you're having a lot of difficulty you may want to skip straight to alternative, after reading a a synophsiss online for extra and unlimited.

[JustMK]

Okay. I played about a half of Extra and dropped it. It's just as terrible as I... didn't excpect it to be. I thought it would be a rich story with good written characters and proper humour. But, alas, it's stupid and boring to the bone.
Now I started Unlimited and it's... pretty good at first hour. Have to see what have this VN to offer.