Muv Luv Alternative isn't even good. (spoilers)

[Grimm Carrolls]

I'm going to give you all fair warning - this will annoy a lot of you. But kicking the hornets nest is fun, and I invested too much time into the series and hope into the hype to just up and forget about it.

No idea why it's so well liked. Bear in mind I completed Muv Luv and Unlimited. I read up to the Beta ♥♥♥♥ scene in Alternative, then dropped it, read a summary and was baffled.

Firstly, the protagonist sucks. He starts off great. He's a marty stu and you root for him because we've become invested in a world that has little to no chance, but then one little thing goes wrong and he goes down a path of angsty crying. And he never shuts the ♥♥♥♥ up with his internal dialogue. 24/7 he's repeating obvious ♥♥♥♥ or raging inside his head or something.

Secondly, far too slow pace. There's too many times where Takeru is talking back and forth about nothing pertinent with people (or, of course, himself).

Thirdly, the plot is garbage. It doesn't go anywhere. And the deaths are just there for shock value. 90% of the deaths were of characters who were not developed nor even slightly compelling at all.

Fourth, shock value. The chomp scene was the only death scene that had any significance, since an entire horrible arc was based around it. Everyone else just died randomly and had little impact on the story on their way out. Hell, they didn't even serve as development for anyone else, with the exception of the one Captain lady, and that was so forced and spontaneous I wouldn't be surprised if it cost someone their job.
Speaking of shock value, let's talk about the Beta ♥♥♥♥ scene. It was utterly ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. What, the beta for some reason decided it wanted to know what would make a girl moan? Not a dude, though, right? Because who cares about that. Yes, let's do all that then harvest her brain for no reason.
Doesn't help that Sumika sucks as a character and even that fate wasn't enough to make anyone care about her.

Fifth, infodumping. Self-explanatory. Even if you disagree with every other little thing I say, this is simply an undeniable fact.
Exposition is supposed to be weaved into a dialogue, not fed to you like you're in a classroom. Reading this stuff feels like work half the time, and when you're nodding off when important information that you need to hear is being told to you.. well, that's obviously not good at all.

Sixth, romantic interests. Why give us all these options and characters to explore with in the last games and then force us into a relationship with the most generic and insipid character ever created? A character that has NO depth, even in the original. A character that has no likes or interests that are not Takeru related? A character that whines, complains and is only useful due to a power that is not her own? A character two steps from becoming a Yandere, and yet even that somehow prevents her from becoming the least bit compelling.
Yeah. ♥♥♥♥ her.

Seventh, characters were horrible, yo. Like, really bad. They developed well enough in the original slice of life VN, but practically nothing happened with them in Alternative. I forgot they existed half the time. Like Amane and her boyfriend that was, like, twice her age? Where did that go, again, when he staged the Coup De Tat? What interaction did they have? How did that impact her?
It didn't do ♥♥♥♥.

Eight, the ending. Really? That's the conclusion after all that worldbuilding and ♥♥♥♥-poor development? Give me a break.

And finally, Angst. So. Much. Angst. Takeru is always screaming and nobody inside of his head, and even outside of his head infront of people, creating awkward atmospheres. The one point where I was like "Oh, this dude is awesome" was in the retelling of the scene where those two jealous soldiers sock the crap out of him. He embarassed himself in Unlimited, but took the situation like a champ in Alternative.
Where did that Takeru go? The dude who was willing to get beaten the hell out of to get ♥♥♥♥ down, and stay calm throughout the whole thing? He was awesome, and he didn't stick around long.
You ♥♥♥♥♥s thought Shirou from Fate Stay/night was embarassing? Lmfao.

Yeah, so, the only halfway good thing about Muv Luv was it's worldbuilding. Why this is so popular is beyond me.

[Grimm Carrolls]

Bring on the fury.

[cheer up]

lol

[Grimm Carrolls]

Originally posted by geewiz:

lol

Yep, incompetent writing can be pretty funny.

[🈲AntiqueMemeShow🈂]

Can't help but agree with this. Stuck through Extra and Unlimited to be able to experience "the best visual novel out there."

Really though, everything in the Alternative felt crammed together. What seemed to be an awesome story ended up being delivered as nothing more than a poorly thought out draft.

Honestly, the biggest dissapointment was the characters. Every single story I've seen except for Steins;gate seems to suffer from the following issue: we get characters (even the main cast who isn't the protag) whose only purpose in the story is to serve as some kind of trigger for the protag in order to keep roughly hammering away towards a conclusion to the story. That's their only purpose to the story and as a result they don't recieve any developments as characters that are meaningful for the story. They're just there for the sake of being there.

Character development? What character development? The only character that even got development was Shirogane, and even then his character would devolve everytime he engaged in conversation with his squadmates which would lead to him immediately self-degrading himself for the only purpose that he himself desires to self-degrade himself simply because he suffers from the protag syndrome of being arrogant and self-important enough to believe literally everything is his fault.

You could easily twist this into showing how it all actually just makes the whole thing better, but that's just further proof that it's just lazy writing: there's nothing concrete enough to show that this story is good.

Man I'm so tired of seeing potential being thrown out the window because of incompetent story writers...

[Code x70]

Not only Alt, many VNs are very popular and high rated but they aren't good at all, like grisaia and fate.

[Grimm Carrolls]

Originally posted by FaceEater:

Not only Alt, many VNs are very popular and high rated but they aren't good at all, like grisaia and fate.

Grisaia I can see, since the pacing in that was messed up and only two routes out of five were worth it (damn good dialogue though), but i have to disagree with Fate.

The common route of fate was meh. UBW was good, but Heavenly Feels? HF was pretty freakin' rad, in my opinion. It completely turned the world of Fate on it's head and forced Shirou to complete his goals without his servant, and did quite well to create a fearsome antagonist.

Originally posted by THE HELL TRAIN: REVOLUTION ROAD:

Can't help but agree with this. Stuck through Extra and Unlimited to be able to experience "the best visual novel out there."

Really though, everything in the Alternative felt crammed together. What seemed to be an awesome story ended up being delivered as nothing more than a poorly thought out draft.

Honestly, the biggest dissapointment was the characters. Every single story I've seen except for Steins;gate seems to suffer from the following issue: we get characters (even the main cast who isn't the protag) whose only purpose in the story is to serve as some kind of trigger for the protag in order to keep roughly hammering away towards a conclusion to the story. That's their only purpose to the story and as a result they don't recieve any developments as characters that are meaningful for the story. They're just there for the sake of being there.

Character development? What character development? The only character that even got development was Shirogane, and even then his character would devolve everytime he engaged in conversation with his squadmates which would lead to him immediately self-degrading himself for the only purpose that he himself desires to self-degrade himself simply because he suffers from the protag syndrome of being arrogant and self-important enough to believe literally everything is his fault.

You could easily twist this into showing how it all actually just makes the whole thing better, but that's just further proof that it's just lazy writing: there's nothing concrete enough to show that this story is good.

Man I'm so tired of seeing potential being thrown out the window because of incompetent story writers...

Yep, Shirogane was unbearable. That mindless internal monologue has probably shaved years off my life.

Is Stein's Gate good, then? You seem to know what you're talking about when it comes to writing more than I do, so would you recommend it?

[Asmodeus Valkyr]

stein's gate is very good.

[cheer up]

Originally posted by Zakku:

Originally posted by geewiz:

lol

Yep, incompetent writing can be pretty funny.

I can't tell if you're wanting an actual discussion or just to xd epicly bait some "fanboys" into a petty argument.

[🈲AntiqueMemeShow🈂]

Originally posted by Zakku:

Originally posted by FaceEater:

Not only Alt, many VNs are very popular and high rated but they aren't good at all, like grisaia and fate.

Grisaia I can see, since the pacing in that was messed up and only two routes out of five were worth it (damn good dialogue though), but i have to disagree with Fate.

The common route of fate was meh. UBW was good, but Heavenly Feels? HF was pretty freakin' rad, in my opinion. It completely turned the world of Fate on it's head and forced Shirou to complete his goals without his servant, and did quite well to create a fearsome antagonist.

Originally posted by THE HELL TRAIN: REVOLUTION ROAD:

Can't help but agree with this. Stuck through Extra and Unlimited to be able to experience "the best visual novel out there."

Really though, everything in the Alternative felt crammed together. What seemed to be an awesome story ended up being delivered as nothing more than a poorly thought out draft.

Honestly, the biggest dissapointment was the characters. Every single story I've seen except for Steins;gate seems to suffer from the following issue: we get characters (even the main cast who isn't the protag) whose only purpose in the story is to serve as some kind of trigger for the protag in order to keep roughly hammering away towards a conclusion to the story. That's their only purpose to the story and as a result they don't recieve any developments as characters that are meaningful for the story. They're just there for the sake of being there.

Character development? What character development? The only character that even got development was Shirogane, and even then his character would devolve everytime he engaged in conversation with his squadmates which would lead to him immediately self-degrading himself for the only purpose that he himself desires to self-degrade himself simply because he suffers from the protag syndrome of being arrogant and self-important enough to believe literally everything is his fault.

You could easily twist this into showing how it all actually just makes the whole thing better, but that's just further proof that it's just lazy writing: there's nothing concrete enough to show that this story is good.

Man I'm so tired of seeing potential being thrown out the window because of incompetent story writers...

Yep, Shirogane was unbearable. That mindless internal monologue has probably shaved years off my life.

Is Stein's Gate good, then? You seem to know what you're talking about when it comes to writing more than I do, so would you recommend it?

Steins;gate is great. It has an extremely interesting story, but where it really shines is in its characters. They each serve their role in the story and are developed in proper fashion to augment that role in the story as events progress. That in turn only helps make the story more fascinating. More specifically though, the characters are their own persons and they act with regards to that. While what they do in relation with the MC does of course push the story along, they are in no way just a means to reach an end for the MC.

If you haven't read the vn or watched the anime yet, it is most definitely worth your time.

[Grimm Carrolls]

Originally posted by geewiz:

Originally posted by Zakku:

Yep, incompetent writing can be pretty funny.

I can't tell if you're wanting an actual discussion or just to xd epicly bait some "fanboys" into a petty argument.

I don't think that's your line. Someone who just comes in and says nothing but 'lol', as if he can dismiss critique with that one word or something doesn't sound like the sort of person who can then act as if I'm the belligerent troll. Point being, you deserved a worse response than the one I gave you for your childishness, and you had no reason prior to leaving your comment to think I was trying to bait anyone into anything.

But in all seriousness, I'd love a discussion.

[cheer up]

Originally posted by Zakku:

Originally posted by geewiz:

I can't tell if you're wanting an actual discussion or just to xd epicly bait some "fanboys" into a petty argument.

I don't think that's your line. Someone who just comes in and says nothing but 'lol', as if he can dismiss critique with that one word or something doesn't sound like the sort of person who can then act as if I'm the belligerent troll. Point being, you deserved a worse response than the one I gave you for your childishness, and you had no reason prior to leaving your comment to think I was trying to bait anyone into anything.

But in all seriousness, I'd love a discussion.

" this will annoy a lot of you. But kicking the hornets nest is fun"

"Bring on the fury."

"not trying to bait anyone"

Alright, lol. I even agree with a couple of your points but the way you word these parts makes me not take you seriously.

"Why this is so popular is beyond me."

I don't understand how you can unironically post this.

"Fifth, infodumping. Self-explanatory. Even if you disagree with every other little thing I say, this is simply an undeniable fact.
Exposition is supposed to be weaved into a dialogue, not fed to you like you're in a classroom. Reading this stuff feels like work half the time, and when you're nodding off when important information that you need to hear is being told to you.. well, that's obviously not good at all. "

What exactly makes this a fact? The only parts to me that felt like I was being shoveled information in a classroom was when Takeru was actually IN a classroom, so I don't really see the problem considering it was appropriate for the setting.

[Grimm Carrolls]

@geewiz

"Alright, lol. I even agree with a couple of your points but the way you word these parts makes me not take you seriously."

Made, or make? If it's the former, then I apologize, but if it's the latter, then that's simply an excuse not to engage me in a logical discussion. I mean, here I am, fully willing to have an open dialogue, so what's the reason to disengage?

I post a massive comment about all my gripes. You think I just posted all of that for the lulz or something? No, I want a discussion from reasonable and logical people. And I don't think that it's unreasonable that I was expecting massive backlash from a visual novel this well-loved in the General Discussions section of said VN.
In hindsight, I regret making such phrases, but I still don't think it warrants treating me like a troll.

"I don't understand how you can unironically post this."

Come on. You talk about having a discussion and you throw this at me? You see my massive list of complaints, some of which you agreed with (though you only bring one up that you disagree with, so that's interesting) and you're essentially saying that you don't understand how I am baffled it's considered the greatest VN of all time.

That simply doesn't make any sense, wiz.

"What exactly makes this a fact? The only parts to me that felt like I was being shoveled information in a classroom was when Takeru was actually IN a classroom, so I don't really see the problem considering it was appropriate for the setting."

What makes it a fact?

I mean, did you miss every scene were Yuuko essentially became your life tutor? Where she had you standing whilst she halted the plot to explain every little thing in existence? For a walking plot device, she held up the plot quite a bit to do that. Shirogane didn't help with his constant inner-monologue meanderings.

And, no, it's not appropriate. Exposition is boring. You show, you don't tell. That's writing 101. That scene where the individual beta classes were explained was the worst scene in the game. They threw away the golden oppportunity of showing each of the beta classes play to their strengths and counter the human front's efforts. Instead, we were told they COULD do these things, and were probably doing it in the background whilst Takeru's group mowed them down like mooks in a Musuo game.

[Svenhent]

Interesting stuf you mentioned there, no doubt.

Anyway, going through the flaws of Muv-Luv in general, I'd think it's mainly related to its origin. It came out 10+ years ago targetting the specific niche among the VN community, so the quality and style of writing isn't one that suit the taste of majority of the audience/readers nowadays. Many anime/VN/LN/similar media are having issue of "generic" settings and characters, but I'll refraining to commenting too much on this topic. (in short, I'm on the side where audience nowadays have been imposing too much of such judging criteria on the media.) But a lot of the praise was given to Muv-Luv because it was slightly unique twist (or rather a bold move) as compared to other VNs around that time. If you really want a reason why the franchise is popular, I'd say the recognition is given based on the time it was released in comparison with other works at that time, rather than among the "plot-twist" or great VNs which may cater to difference range of audience as time passes.

Keep in mind though Muv-Luv is also a change from Age's previous popular works eg Rumbling Hearts. And some of the emotional ties of the fans towards certain new characters in Alternative are actually due to their appearance in previous works, since Alternative is essentially a parallel world of the Extra which some previous works were set in .

Anyways, I can see why there's a bigger split in the reception of Muv-Luv in western countries (or just English readers) as compared to here over in East. Not sure how to put it into words, but I do see a difference in acceptance of tropes or immersion into the plot due to the different targeted group of the media I suppose. (Yes, we also have split opinions on anime/VN/LN as to whether we enjoy it or not, but sometimes not as radical/critical I suppose. eg. generally Western audience doesn't reallt enjoy the Slice-of-Life elements as much as in JP.) In short, Muv-Luv is another of those works that will leave a great impression for people who enjoy the genre/trope but might not suite the taste of the general audience.

[cheer up]

Originally posted by Zakku:

@geewiz

"Alright, lol. I even agree with a couple of your points but the way you word these parts makes me not take you seriously."

Made, or make? If it's the former, then I apologize, but if it's the latter, then that's simply an excuse not to engage me in a logical discussion. I mean, here I am, fully willing to have an open dialogue, so what's the reason to disengage?

I post a massive comment about all my gripes. You think I just posted all of that for the lulz or something? No, I want a discussion from reasonable and logical people. And I don't think that it's unreasonable that I was expecting massive backlash from a visual novel this well-loved in the General Discussions section of said VN.
In hindsight, I regret making such phrases, but I still don't think it warrants treating me like a troll.

"I don't understand how you can unironically post this."

Come on. You talk about having a discussion and you throw this at me? You see my massive list of complaints, some of which you agreed with (though you only bring one up that you disagree with, so that's interesting) and you're essentially saying that you don't understand how I am baffled it's considered the greatest VN of all time.

That simply doesn't make any sense, wiz.

"What exactly makes this a fact? The only parts to me that felt like I was being shoveled information in a classroom was when Takeru was actually IN a classroom, so I don't really see the problem considering it was appropriate for the setting."

What makes it a fact?

I mean, did you miss every scene were Yuuko essentially became your life tutor? Where she had you standing whilst she halted the plot to explain every little thing in existence? For a walking plot device, she held up the plot quite a bit to do that. Shirogane didn't help with his constant inner-monologue meanderings.

And, no, it's not appropriate. Exposition is boring. You show, you don't tell. That's writing 101. That scene where the individual beta classes were explained was the worst scene in the game. They threw away the golden oppportunity of showing each of the beta classes play to their strengths and counter the human front's efforts. Instead, we were told they COULD do these things, and were probably doing it in the background whilst Takeru's group mowed them down like mooks in a Musuo game.

"I post a massive comment about all my gripes. You think I just posted all of that for the lulz or something? No, I want a discussion from reasonable and logical people. And I don't think that it's unreasonable that I was expecting massive backlash from a visual novel this well-loved in the General Discussions section of said VN.
In hindsight, I regret making such phrases, but I still don't think it warrants treating me like a troll. "

I've seen it happen before so, yes, I did partially believe it. If that wasn't your intention, I apologize.

"Come on. You talk about having a discussion and you throw this at me? You see my massive list of complaints, some of which you agreed with (though you only bring one up that you disagree with, so that's interesting) and you're essentially saying that you don't understand how I am baffled it's considered the greatest VN of all time. "

You didn't say "I don't understand how it's considered the greatest" you said "I don't understand why this is so popular". There's obviously grounds to argue on if it deserves to be the best or not, but on the grounds of popularity, it's all subjective opinion. I'm sure everybody has the "I don't understand why x is so popular" thoughts.

"What makes it a fact?

I mean, did you miss every scene were Yuuko essentially became your life tutor? Where she had you standing whilst she halted the plot to explain every little thing in existence? For a walking plot device, she held up the plot quite a bit to do that. Shirogane didn't help with his constant inner-monologue meanderings. "

Don't recall what all she was used to explain but her explanation scenes in her office or whatever seemed pretty appropriate IIRC. Although, yes, his constant inner-monologues is one of the things I agree with you on. Although, I've not read many VNs it seems like something that happens quite a bit in the medium (perhaps not to the same extent).

If I had wanted to fully disengage, I wouldn't have posted at all. I hoped there may have been a chance you were messing around so I went with it.

I also agree with you on the pacing (slightly) and the angst but I didn't feel like typing it all out.

"(though you only bring one up that you disagree with, so that's interesting) "

Because there's no point even trying to argue with lines like "Thirdly, the plot is garbage. It doesn't go anywhere.". I've tried before and it never goes well.

[Grimm Carrolls]

@geewiz

"I've seen it happen before so, yes, I did partially believe it. If that wasn't your intention, I apologize."

I apologize also, as I believe our bickering is due to a mutual misunderstanding and foolish initial assumptions.

"You didn't say "I don't understand how it's considered the greatest" you said "I don't understand why this is so popular". There's obviously grounds to argue on if it deserves to be the best or not, but on the grounds of popularity, it's all subjective opinion. I'm sure everybody has the "I don't understand why x is so popular" thoughts."

Fair enough, but I stand by both statements regardless.

Usually when something is popular, there is a observable reason for it's popularity. It's easy to see why the Beetles were popular for instance. It's also kinda easy to see why Twilight is popular. But I really don't see why Muv Luv Alternative is popular. If that makes me a fool, so be it, but when you have people swearing by it to the point of not only overlooking it's flaws but also reccomending you to slog through the two pre-quels, which even by Alternative Fan's standards are not very good at all (especially Unlimited, i mean come on), then you'd expect something unique and compelling.

I simply do not see it, unless you count the worldbuilding and relative realism. Attention to detail is something Muv Luv Alternative has and then some. But I'd assume the cons were something that would envelop this pro.

"Don't recall what all she was used to explain but her explanation scenes in her office or whatever seemed pretty appropriate IIRC. Although, yes, his constant inner-monologues is one of the things I agree with you on. Although, I've not read many VNs it seems like something that happens quite a bit in the medium (perhaps not to the same extent)."

Some were required. Quantum Physics is hardly something that you can show, after all. Some simply were not, like conversations regarding trying to communicate with the Beta. Those scenes dragged on forever, too. I appreciate attention to detail, but when you're showing attention to detail using tell, then you're going to have long, drawn out scenes. The point you end up getting from scenes can usually be summarized in a sentence.

Yeah, there are some good visual novels that also have that. But it's the extent I'm talking about. He cuts in at the most annoying times, sometimes during dramatic encounters like Tsukuyomi and the American General arguing over their next course of action when the shoguns' life is in stake.
VNs like Umineko and Majikoi have it to a much smaller degree to the point where you'd probably not even consciously notice it. In a medium that is not quite as graphic as a manga, or not quite as descriptive and wordy as a novel, inner monologue is a good tool. It's simply used badly in Alternative.

Fair enough. I mean, the premise is rich and promising. There's more going on than the war, which is good. It simply goes downhill after the coup'detat.
And the ending, from what I have seen, is actually disliked by a lot of fans.