Wings of Icarus

[halfmanhalfape]

This relic heals 3HP each time an enemy is killed by knocking them into a pit. So I've run twice with this relic now with an old build that specialises in knocking enemies into pits. I'm pretty sure the level design has changed somewhat because before there used to be tons of pits. There were also many caged rooms with pits. But it doesn't seem to be the case anymore. Even with a dedicated build to knock enemies into pits, this relic probably only healed for 70HP each run? As it stands, its really pretty useless. I take more damage actually trying to find a pit than it heals me. I'm not sure what to do about this relic but I think the developers actually didn't factor into account that most caged rooms now actually have no pits, which sadly makes this pretty useless as I was so looking forward to trying it.

[Heavenly Peaks Purveyor]

All of the healing relics on their own are pretty useless. The one that I've noticed is easiest to use is the Regenerative Healing well.

I use this combination to make the most of it.
Orange Cloak (forgot the name)
+ Regen Inkwell.
As for Arcanas. Get the Fire One that boosts your basic arcana use , and any other arcana that has a high hit count that you enjoy using.

During your run, focus on obtaining items that increase the # of hits you can perform (Sidewinders Badge, Cotton Candy,etc)

Also try to get the Perfect Time Crystal if possible.

The effects of the cloak, plus the ink well will heal you for 25 points or so (dependent upon HP).

This is probably the best way to get consistent healing imo.


The second way is to get the Purple Cloak + Travellers Knapsack + Pathfinder's Map.

Still really low healing.

The last and final is to focus on upping your critical rate as much as possible and use the Vampire's Sunglasses.

Either way it goes, I also don't understand why health is so sparse since you can literally go into ANY boss encounter and get completely destroyed many times...

[Soga]

Originally posted by AvidAnimeFan:

All of the healing relics on their own are pretty useless.

Git gud. The healing relics aren't there to pick you up from 100 to 500 health in one stage. They're there to give you a bit of a safety net if you screw up and make a few mistakes.

Your most consistent heals are going to come from health drops and buying potions, so long as you don't overuse the potions unless you have royal jelly. Of course, you're supposed to be able to avoid taking damage well enough that you don't need the potion on every stage, but if you only need to use the potion twice or thrice in a full run, I think you're doing well.

The best advice I can give you is to save your gold (or keep it above 100) until you've 100%'d the map so that if you're really low on health, you have enough to buy a potion and then use the leftover gold to buy whatever else you need. Of course, seeing as this game uses roguelike logic, there is an added benefit of conserving your gold like this - a coupon could drop during your run and you would be able to benefit from the savings on that very stage.

[halfmanhalfape]

Originally posted by AvidAnimeFan:

All of the healing relics on their own are pretty useless. The one that I've noticed is easiest to use is the Regenerative Healing well.

I use this combination to make the most of it.
Orange Cloak (forgot the name)
+ Regen Inkwell.
As for Arcanas. Get the Fire One that boosts your basic arcana use , and any other arcana that has a high hit count that you enjoy using.

During your run, focus on obtaining items that increase the # of hits you can perform (Sidewinders Badge, Cotton Candy,etc)

Also try to get the Perfect Time Crystal if possible.

The effects of the cloak, plus the ink well will heal you for 25 points or so (dependent upon HP).

This is probably the best way to get consistent healing imo.


The second way is to get the Purple Cloak + Travellers Knapsack + Pathfinder's Map.

Still really low healing.

The last and final is to focus on upping your critical rate as much as possible and use the Vampire's Sunglasses.

Either way it goes, I also don't understand why health is so sparse since you can literally go into ANY boss encounter and get completely destroyed many times...

Thanks for the reply. Yeah I understand that healing is purposely sparse in this game. I don't mind that alone so much actually. And I did have a dedicated build for the Wings of Icarus so it wasn't really the relic on its own. But I agree with you nonetheless.

I was just a little frustrated that it would be such a fun build knocking enemies into pits and getting healed for it. The drawback of this build is obviously without pits the arcanas actually do very little damage, so you have more problems in rooms with no pits. And then now I find almost every room has no pits, so kinda disappointed. But oh well. I'm still glad they updated this game.

[Heavenly Peaks Purveyor]

Originally posted by Soga:

Originally posted by AvidAnimeFan:

All of the healing relics on their own are pretty useless.

Git gud. The healing relics aren't there to pick you up from 100 to 500 health in one stage. They're there to give you a bit of a safety net if you screw up and make a few mistakes.

Your most consistent heals are going to come from health drops and buying potions, so long as you don't overuse the potions unless you have royal jelly. Of course, you're supposed to be able to avoid taking damage well enough that you don't need the potion on every stage, but if you only need to use the potion twice or thrice in a full run, I think you're doing well.

The best advice I can give you is to save your gold (or keep it above 100) until you've 100%'d the map so that if you're really low on health, you have enough to buy a potion and then use the leftover gold to buy whatever else you need. Of course, seeing as this game uses roguelike logic, there is an added benefit of conserving your gold like this - a coupon could drop during your run and you would be able to benefit from the savings on that very stage.

I don't need to 'Git Gud'. I've collected everything there is to collect and beat every mode in the game.

I'm just stating a fact. The healing relics are largely USELESS.

Even the one that claims to increase drop rates of health orbs (which also happens to be completely missing the info about how much it increases drop rates) doesn't work.

This isn't really a case where anyone needs to be educated persay, many people have noticed this. Its not a matter of people needing to get better. There are plenty of roguelites that offer healing potions, healing items, etc.

This one is just incredibly, sometimes needlessly stingy.

It does this to ramp up the difficulty of the game on an artificial level, when they could just as easily add a difficulty mode (something other games have) for people who simply want a more difficult challenge.

[Arevi]

The pits got updated due to complaints. They were so common that it often became about dodging pits more than enemies, leading to a lot of free damage that felt cheap. So it got updated.

Healing relics are supposed to work with other relics which is why picking them to START a run is not recomended. This is also intentional as they used to be easy to break the game with. Vampire Glasses + Yellow Crit Robes was a guaranteed run ender for most runs at the time.

Healing is always something controlled tightly within Roguelikes. Some others may offer it as a resource or a reward. Some restrict it tightly. It depends on the game and its style. Wizards of Legend has so many evasion options and movement options alone before even including spells that give free stuns, knockback and projectile removal, that the restriction on healing is there for tension. Otherwise it could become far too easy to cheese runs.

If you find you need healing often then yes you do need to ''Git gud'' because you shouldnt NEED the healing if you are skilled enough. If you are not skilled enough then play more and reach that level.
It does NOT need another difficulty mode as it already exists.This would be why there is a Medal and a Robe set designed to make the game EVEN harder for those who truly have reached that level.

[Heavenly Peaks Purveyor]

Originally posted by Arevi:

The pits got updated due to complaints. They were so common that it often became about dodging pits more than enemies, leading to a lot of free damage that felt cheap. So it got updated.

Healing relics are supposed to work with other relics which is why picking them to START a run is not recomended. This is also intentional as they used to be easy to break the game with. Vampire Glasses + Yellow Crit Robes was a guaranteed run ender for most runs at the time.

Healing is always something controlled tightly within Roguelikes. Some others may offer it as a resource or a reward. Some restrict it tightly. It depends on the game and its style. Wizards of Legend has so many evasion options and movement options alone before even including spells that give free stuns, knockback and projectile removal, that the restriction on healing is there for tension. Otherwise it could become far too easy to cheese runs.

If you find you need healing often then yes you do need to ''Git gud'' because you shouldnt NEED the healing if you are skilled enough. If you are not skilled enough then play more and reach that level.
It does NOT need another difficulty mode as it already exists.This would be why there is a Medal and a Robe set designed to make the game EVEN harder for those who truly have reached that level.

As someone who's reached 5x (stage 12-2, with screenshots to confirm), its got nothing to do with difficulty and more about enjoyment.

You guys love arguing about semantics but the reality is im not the only one to have suggested or want these things.

Furthermore, as I've mentioned plenty of ROGUELIKES / ROGUELITES offer healing by the plenty.
For example, Faster Than Light, which i would consider to be 100x more challenging than WOL.

They also have difficulty levels.

.... sorry but your points just don't hold weight in this particular discussion.

[Arevi]

Originally posted by AvidAnimeFan:

Originally posted by Arevi:

The pits got updated due to complaints. They were so common that it often became about dodging pits more than enemies, leading to a lot of free damage that felt cheap. So it got updated.

Healing relics are supposed to work with other relics which is why picking them to START a run is not recomended. This is also intentional as they used to be easy to break the game with. Vampire Glasses + Yellow Crit Robes was a guaranteed run ender for most runs at the time.

Healing is always something controlled tightly within Roguelikes. Some others may offer it as a resource or a reward. Some restrict it tightly. It depends on the game and its style. Wizards of Legend has so many evasion options and movement options alone before even including spells that give free stuns, knockback and projectile removal, that the restriction on healing is there for tension. Otherwise it could become far too easy to cheese runs.

If you find you need healing often then yes you do need to ''Git gud'' because you shouldnt NEED the healing if you are skilled enough. If you are not skilled enough then play more and reach that level.
It does NOT need another difficulty mode as it already exists.This would be why there is a Medal and a Robe set designed to make the game EVEN harder for those who truly have reached that level.

As someone who's reached 5x (stage 12-2, with screenshots to confirm), its got nothing to do with difficulty and more about enjoyment.

You guys love arguing about semantics but the reality is im not the only one to have suggested or want these things.

Furthermore, as I've mentioned plenty of ROGUELIKES / ROGUELITES offer healing by the plenty.
For example, Faster Than Light, which i would consider to be 100x more challenging than WOL.

They also have difficulty levels.

.... sorry but your points just don't hold weight in this particular discussion.

Except that FTL has Healing based on currency. Exactly like Potions. Its not supposed to be used that often hence the expense. FTL does indeed have difficulty modes as its designed that way and isnt based on just skill. RNG plays a far heavier hand there.

Sorry but YOUR points dont hold weight when you are pulling random games simply to support your theory without taking anything else into consideration

[Arevi]

In fact lets take the Healing in other games since you have fixated in that and unlike yourself I actually WILL supply example as I own pretty much every single Roguelike and games like it:

Binding of Isaac - Has movement options, healing drops randomly. Damage is hit based so healing is the same. RNG involved in drops per room as taking hits is more likely.

Risk of Rain - 3d with movement and defence options, has healing with Hp Regen as well as Shields. Has items to assist in healing although items do not heal much (sound familiar?). Direct healing is rare

Dead Cells - Has ''difficulty'' modes with Boss Cells. Healing restricted to either RNG drop Food or Potion. Potion Charges restricted as the Cell Modes Increase. Rare item for healing, extremely hard to use multiple times.

Enter The Gungeon - Heal is hit based, healing drops are rare, purchasable by spending currency. Healing Items exist but again do not heal a large amount as evasion is the main focus.

If needed i can continue. When the game expects you to take damage the healing is provided more often. When the game has Evasion options and Defence options the healing decreases as the point is to NOT get hit.

Once again WoL HAS difficulty selection with the Medal and the Pride Robe. If you do not have these then you are already playing on the easier mode. If you still struggle then ''git gud'' because the difficulty is the enjoyment. Or are you also someone who thinks games like Dark Souls need an easy mode?

In addition : ''got nothing to do with difficulty and more about enjoyment.'' is completely and utterly incorrect. Pits were updated because of enjoyment. Items got updated due to enjoyment. Difficulty IS part of the enjoyment. Just because you want something to be different doesnt mean it should be.

[Soga]

Originally posted by AvidAnimeFan:

I don't need to 'Git Gud'. I've collected everything there is to collect and beat every mode in the game.

You're missing the point. The heals aren't there to pick you up from 100 to 500. They're there to give you that little extra kick to complement your skills - or the skills you should be developing from having played enough to beat every mode and collect everything.

Originally posted by AvidAnimeFan:

I'm just stating a fact. The healing relics are largely USELESS.

Really? Even the example you cite, Wings of Icarus, if it really gives +3, how many enemies are you fighting in that room to begin with? In the typical case, I'd say you're fighting at least 3, maybe 4 enemies. That's 9 to 12 health you just picked up from instakilling enemies. Healing drops give like 25 health, so you're roughly getting about half the healing of a heal drop. Again, from instakilling enemies. If you have 500 max HP, healing drops heal you for 5% of your max. That means the WoI give you about 2.5% of your total HP back. That's pretty respectable by roguelike standards for free/easy heals.

I've also found in many situations that the Vampire Glasses, combined with the purple robe, can heal me for around 100 on a good floor run. We're talking 20% heal at no price.

Originally posted by AvidAnimeFan:

Even the one that claims to increase drop rates of health orbs (which also happens to be completely missing the info about how much it increases drop rates) doesn't work.

How do you know it doesn't work? Did you run any experiments with a decent sample of trials to count up the amount of health drops per kill you got, plus the control trials without the item?

Originally posted by AvidAnimeFan:

This isn't really a case where anyone needs to be educated persay, many people have noticed this. Its not a matter of people needing to get better. There are plenty of roguelites that offer healing potions, healing items, etc.

Except it is that kind of game where you are required to get better, or you'll get nowhere. Not just in terms of skill, but also in terms of knowing the right synergies - synergies between arcanas, synergies between relics, and even cross-synergies between relics and arcanas. Not many people have the patience or the capability to achieve that.

Originally posted by AvidAnimeFan:

This one is just incredibly, sometimes needlessly stingy.

It's also worth noting that WoL maintains a very careful balance among relics and arcanas, because nothing exists in isolation. Sure, the WoI's heals may not give you the "oomph" you want, but it doesn't exist in isolation. The WoI will complement your other relics, your choice in arcanas (e.g. arcanas that are better at knocking enemies into pits will synergize better with the WoI), and even your very playstyle.

Arevi also makes very good points about games that focus on evasion having less emphasis on healing.

[Heavenly Peaks Purveyor]

Originally posted by Soga:

Originally posted by AvidAnimeFan:

I don't need to 'Git Gud'. I've collected everything there is to collect and beat every mode in the game.

You're missing the point. The heals aren't there to pick you up from 100 to 500. They're there to give you that little extra kick to complement your skills - or the skills you should be developing from having played enough to beat every mode and collect everything.

Originally posted by AvidAnimeFan:

I'm just stating a fact. The healing relics are largely USELESS.

Really? Even the example you cite, Wings of Icarus, if it really gives +3, how many enemies are you fighting in that room to begin with? In the typical case, I'd say you're fighting at least 3, maybe 4 enemies. That's 9 to 12 health you just picked up from instakilling enemies. Healing drops give like 25 health, so you're roughly getting about half the healing of a heal drop. Again, from instakilling enemies. If you have 500 max HP, healing drops heal you for 5% of your max. That means the WoI give you about 2.5% of your total HP back. That's pretty respectable by roguelike standards for free/easy heals.

I've also found in many situations that the Vampire Glasses, combined with the purple robe, can heal me for around 100 on a good floor run. We're talking 20% heal at no price.

Originally posted by AvidAnimeFan:

Even the one that claims to increase drop rates of health orbs (which also happens to be completely missing the info about how much it increases drop rates) doesn't work.

How do you know it doesn't work? Did you run any experiments with a decent sample of trials to count up the amount of health drops per kill you got, plus the control trials without the item?

Originally posted by AvidAnimeFan:

This isn't really a case where anyone needs to be educated persay, many people have noticed this. Its not a matter of people needing to get better. There are plenty of roguelites that offer healing potions, healing items, etc.

Except it is that kind of game where you are required to get better, or you'll get nowhere. Not just in terms of skill, but also in terms of knowing the right synergies - synergies between arcanas, synergies between relics, and even cross-synergies between relics and arcanas. Not many people have the patience or the capability to achieve that.

Originally posted by AvidAnimeFan:

This one is just incredibly, sometimes needlessly stingy.

It's also worth noting that WoL maintains a very careful balance among relics and arcanas, because nothing exists in isolation. Sure, the WoI's heals may not give you the "oomph" you want, but it doesn't exist in isolation. The WoI will complement your other relics, your choice in arcanas (e.g. arcanas that are better at knocking enemies into pits will synergize better with the WoI), and even your very playstyle.

Arevi also makes very good points about games that focus on evasion having less emphasis on healing.

You guys are tiring.
I never said that healing should exist to fully restore your health (though some do, like potions for example literally give 100-200 HP, to the point that they nerfed that as well each time you collect one).

I'm talking about the fact that the relic DEDICATED to causing more health drops to appear simply doesn't work.

I'm talking about the fact that most other items DEDICATED to restoring your health simply aren't effective for what they claim to do.

As someone who's logged in about 130 hours to date, I can say, with 100% certainty WOL doesn't "compliment" relics--at all.

Its actually the opposite.

In order to prevent you from gaining say 2-3 healing items in a single run its programmed to offer you different things.

Its not just like that with healing items, its like that with every category.

As evidence of this, try wearing the Orange cloak and going on a run.

You will be offered an item that seals off your ability to use your signature charge by nox, religiously without fail.

You also won't even see most of the items designed to assist with increasing signature charge, damage or healing.

They will literally "disappear" from the game completely.

This has happened EVERY single time I've used the Orange cloak and focused on SIG build, because I'm at the point where, since I've done literally everything else-- I've started making up goals for myself.

Thats how I stumbled upon this particular element of the game.

There's not really much that will change my mind on this point that you could say, not because I'm unreasonable, but because I have vastly more experience than you playing this game and also have observed it in action much more than you have by this point. Reality vs Ideals.

I think the game would be infinitely better with five things:

1) New tokens that allow offense, defense or misc tokens to appear in the relic shop more often during runs. For example when you have the 'Battler's Token' the Relic shop stocks 2 guaranteed Offense relics on stage generation.

Same for the other categories.

2) The ability to adjust how often healing orbs actually spawn from enemies directly, or atleast influence it. Once again, this isn't really due to "difficulty" or the need to be better.
I can defeat sura with any combination (even level) pretty easily. To the point that I now regularly reach the 3X and 5X difficulties before I'm defeated.

It's the principle. I go through entire runes without seeing health drops once. Then some runs i get them every 2 seconds. Its broken, it needs to be looked at. End of discussion.

3) Multiple difficulty levels. This could be something as simple as removing or increasing the number, health and attack power of enemies in each level. I'ma programmer. I could literally code something like this in 10 minutes using a few variables. Its literally that easy.

4) Sura gaining an additional life bar, or maybe a secret hidden enemy (chaos monster or something, or perhaps Sura's chaos magic runs out of control?) after playing through 2x.

5) The ability to spend 100 additional chaos gems to bring another relic in. For each additional relic you bring this amount doubles. (200,400,etc). This would limit players from bringing in a ton of relics, allow them to explore with combinations and get rid of max chaos gems being a constant all in one fell swoop.

Opinions are just that.

In the same way Im ignoring yours, you can feel free to ignore mine. I just feel it fair to let you know, your opinion won't change mine in the slightest.

[Arevi]

'' but because I have vastly more experience than you playing this game''

And with that arrogance you have just proved that you are a child who does not like having his simplistic ideas challenged. Good job. Proves there is no point to this discussion any longer

[halfmanhalfape]

@AvidAnimeFan While I don't completely agree with all the points you have made, I think someone with 130+ hours in the game should be listened to nonetheless, and everyone has a right to their own opinion regardless, and I support your right to have yours even if I do not always agree. I'm not really referencing anyone else in this conversation since I do not really like others telling people to "git gud", especially in this video game which if anyone has decent gaming intelligence and experience, knows is not particularly difficult. For this reason I'd really rather not engage them.

I myself have 250+ hours in the game, and agree with some of your experiences. While I don't know about the game forcing balance or the lack of complementing relics, I do agree that the game tries to limit healing, and I believe also that it is a good thing. The main point I was bringing across with Wings of Icarus was that it only heals about 70HP per run with a dedicated build, which is really little. As someone else who has experience with the game, I think you would agree that very little else in the game will complement this relic at all, or even make it worth it. I single out this relic because I actually find the other healing relics (Vampire sunglasses, Pathfinder's Knapsack etc.) relevant. They are worth getting and using (and the Awe cloak with Vampire's sunglasses is still a game ender). Also, Raspberry Cookie Box has been buffed to increase healing orb drop rates by 50% instead of 20% as it did before since this patch. So even the developers do agree that the buff to healing orb drop rates was vastly underwhelming, and buffed the relic by a lot. I did notice a change in healing orb drop rates all along, but if you found it underwhelming before, you might want to give it a go now and see if it makes any difference.

Anyway I came to the forums to bring up my point because this game is awesome, and I think the developers are awesome. And wanting it to do well, I express my own opinions about the game, not to trash it but to give feedback. For that reason, I support your giving your opinions and feedback about the game. I think that anyone who defaults to telling you to "git gud" and that the problem lies solely with you and the game is picture perfect is really doing a disservice to the developers, especially with the number of hours you put in and how far you've made it in the game. I'd say to just let them be and pay them no heed and continue to post constructively as before.

If any developers are listening, I propose perhaps buffing the Wings of Icarus to heal 5HP per enemy? I don't know really what would make it worth a relic slot, but I believe some sort of adjustment should be made since there are really few pits to launch enemies into since the last patch. Thanks for listening!

[Arevi]

You can put as many hours into a game as you want. Doesnt make you anymore right or wrong. Or am I a literal god at Path of Exile and WoW because i have thousands of hours in them? This is the most backward way of thinking i think ive seen. Hours do not mean knowledge. You can easily play 100+ hours with the wrong information and think you know better (hint hint hint)

Play with Robe of Pride and then tell me its not balanced around evasion. Then put the Medal on and tell me you havent improved.

Beat the game with Robe of Pride then go back to normal mode and see if you still complain about healing orbs. Or if you now complain that the game is ''so easy now wah'' because your skill actually improved

The game is about NOT getting hit. If you cannot see that then you are literally refusing to pay attention to the game and its mechanics. But sure keep patting each other on the back when you find that one other person who supports your whining. You stated that you want people to give their opinion but dont acknowledge those that disagree with you.

''git gud'' is not based on intelligence or insult. Its a fast direct way to tell someone to learn and improve. It was brought into the limelight hard during the dark souls streaming and people who didnt bother looking into it assumed it was used simply to troll people. Actual DS fans (or those around when this really got steam) will tell you its supposed to be a way to get you to grit your teeth and accept that your skill is below par and needs improving. That you need to start using the systems and not fighting them to fit what YOU want But sure, ignore that and complain that ''I NEEDZ MAOR HEALZ''