why does this ♥♥♥♥ game only find me a higher tier match ?

[SayntSaiko]

i have 7 premium tier 8s (heh , ex permium now they blue like wotb's mom), and a few more lower tiers and every single time i que it only gives me enemies of higher tier , is this how this pathetic game trying to make me feel like a lesser player i totally aint ? what is this garbage, in que list it says there is like 80 tier 8s and 10 tier 9s and every single match i have atleast 3 tier 9s in each team , wtf is this ? i come back after months and i see my premiums turned into blue and every game i get this ♥♥♥♥ ? you trying to kill your game or what ?

[shivensk19]

Publicado originalmente por BellatorMonk:

It's purely to throttle your win rate.

agreed

[shivensk19]

Publicado originalmente por EL_Din_46:

I

Publicado originalmente por anytime:

This game is rigged HEAVILY. I found a video Droodles did last year where they looked over WG patents for the MM... It is NOTHING just innocent "random".

I had the same thought when I first read that patent, but after talking it over with other players and thinking about it more I decided it really doesn't have much to do with Blitz. Even if they never use the idea, companies file patents on every unique idea they have in the hopes that someone will pay them to use the idea. The US patent also dates from well before Blitz existed.

It also isn't the algorithim that they actually use for Blitz. Rather than filing intellectual property lawsuits (they have done so), Wargaming appears to have dropped the patent strategy in favor of a trade secret approach. I've concluded that the difficultiy in finding out the details of MM isn't an accident or poor documentation. I believe it's intentionally done to protect their trade secrets.

But you don't have to believe me or Droodles. YouTuber and occaisonal tournament streamer Fugit is an attorney. That's who you should ask about legal documents such as patents.

https://youtu.be/FVEbtEw00gM?si=BvLeDQSPsphmZDDr

https://youtu.be/Bd_aM7N1osQ?si=l0oQa29ysrWnHOan

Publicado originalmente por BellatorMonk:

Jackie, Not sure if you are addressing me about friend list or not...no idea what that is about unless directed at someone else.

I am not looking for a perfectly even match up. I am looking for the game to NOT have RNG or a MM that obviously skews the matches by placing a large amount of low skill players with 1 or 2 higher skill players on one team and a large amount of higher than low skill players on the opposite far more often than not.

It astounds me that people who advocate that the system is NOT "rigged" are not comprehending that is exactly what people like me want. A system that is ACTUALLY RANDOM.

If that means I go to a 50% average because of true RANDOMNESS then great. As long as I don't see a constant pattern and streak of all the above as discussed.

The last MM adjust to create "fair" matches that everyone complained about turned out to NOT actually be RANDOM still because people who didn't believe they could RIG the MM actually began to SEE the RIGGING and complained.

So if WG can RIG the MM to do so and reversed it back to the broken mess it has always been then isn't that a PURE ADMISSION of the ability to RIG the matches?

It's basic logic....they DID it and people still DON'T BELIEVE they can and do "rig" the matches in some form and fashion via RNG, player and tank selection and thereby are omitting true RANDOM.

If I aim at a target and miss because I suck I don't expect the RNG system to add a 5% chance for to hit the target AND add a 5% chance to my penetration value on a target. Much the same to say I dont expect a -5% chance when I am GOOD at aiming at targets and their weak points.

Again..RNG and MM are essentially two arguments and problems..but both are SKEWED via programming as far as veteran players who are willing to admit such.

All those vets from the original official forums defended WG for YEARS...look some of them up now. They don't even play Regular Mode because they KNOW but still won't admit to "rigging".

They are like certain voters who say one thing in public and then actually vote the other way. They are afraid to admit they were wrong.

eh nope some battles are made so that you lose its mostly when you are having 5x boosters or credit boosters on also there comes the grace period on tanks it ensures that you win the first 7-10 matches in ur new premium or collector vehicle. like i have hade matchmakings in which 3 of my teammates were afk and have been constantly been reported for that reason.

[shivensk19]

Publicado originalmente por BellatorMonk:

Jackie, Not sure if you are addressing me about friend list or not...no idea what that is about unless directed at someone else.

I am not looking for a perfectly even match up. I am looking for the game to NOT have RNG or a MM that obviously skews the matches by placing a large amount of low skill players with 1 or 2 higher skill players on one team and a large amount of higher than low skill players on the opposite far more often than not.

It astounds me that people who advocate that the system is NOT "rigged" are not comprehending that is exactly what people like me want. A system that is ACTUALLY RANDOM.

If that means I go to a 50% average because of true RANDOMNESS then great. As long as I don't see a constant pattern and streak of all the above as discussed.

The last MM adjust to create "fair" matches that everyone complained about turned out to NOT actually be RANDOM still because people who didn't believe they could RIG the MM actually began to SEE the RIGGING and complained.

So if WG can RIG the MM to do so and reversed it back to the broken mess it has always been then isn't that a PURE ADMISSION of the ability to RIG the matches?

It's basic logic....they DID it and people still DON'T BELIEVE they can and do "rig" the matches in some form and fashion via RNG, player and tank selection and thereby are omitting true RANDOM.

If I aim at a target and miss because I suck I don't expect the RNG system to add a 5% chance for to hit the target AND add a 5% chance to my penetration value on a target. Much the same to say I dont expect a -5% chance when I am GOOD at aiming at targets and their weak points.

Again..RNG and MM are essentially two arguments and problems..but both are SKEWED via programming as far as veteran players who are willing to admit such.

All those vets from the original official forums defended WG for YEARS...look some of them up now. They don't even play Regular Mode because they KNOW but still won't admit to "rigging".

They are like certain voters who say one thing in public and then actually vote the other way. They are afraid to admit they were wrong.

aiming system is random spotting system is also random like i havent been able to spot enemys even though the specs of view range say that they should be visible and dont get started about the ghost shells and the track crits how tf does a turret get track crit if hit. like i was fighting this newly purchased tank most of my shells were either going track crit or ghost shells where 2 of my shots went ghost shells even though my aiming reticle was precise. honestly i quit this game im playing war thunder instead of this peice of crap.

[anytime]

Publicado originalmente por shivensk19:

eh nope some battles are made so that you lose its mostly when you are having 5x boosters or credit boosters on also there comes the grace period on tanks it ensures that you win the first 7-10 matches in ur new premium or collector vehicle. like i have hade matchmakings in which 3 of my teammates were afk and have been constantly been reported for that reason.

Strong correlation - I've noticed this pattern extensively. It's almost bad enough it's like why even use the 5x and boosters since it all averages out to 2x.

We are managed like cattle, instead of giving free reighn to be the best, or worst players we can be.

[anytime]

Publicado originalmente por shivensk19:

aiming system is random spotting system is also random like i havent been able to spot enemys even though the specs of view range say that they should be visible and dont get started about the ghost shells and the track crits how tf does a turret get track crit if hit. like i was fighting this newly purchased tank most of my shells were either going track crit or ghost shells where 2 of my shots went ghost shells even though my aiming reticle was precise. honestly i quit this game im playing war thunder instead of this peice of crap.

Strong correlation on the manipulated RNG. Just last night, I somehow managed to win 3 battles in a row (including my 1st battle of the day, which only occurs about every 2 weeks). My 4th battle it was like I was playing a different game. Same tank, same me, but all the sudden just getting max dispersion shots, "track crits" and that kind of crap, bounces, etc.

This pattern leads me to believe that something along the lines of the following. Per battle, a player is assigned an "accuracy modifier". When WG wants a player to win, the player modifier is closer to 0 and increased as WG wants a player to more or less lose.

BTW for any doubters about such things as this...look at how WG buffs tanks. When tanks aren't played, or don't win, they are INCREMENTALLY BUFFED. When tanks are too strong, they are INCREMENTALLY DEBUFFED. Why would it be any different for players? We are just cattle to manage in their game.

Now...how are there 70%ers and 30%ers? I'm not really certain. I think overall this again comes down to the "profiles" that exist. Part of the buff/debuff patterns are in this profiling of player types. It's possible in some cases, WG has determined that there are profile types in which it makes no difference, or there is something that has made these players treated differently.

Last night watching 34wotb's coverage, he was playing a game and he made a move and I'm OMG...if I DID THAT, I WOULD HAVE ABSOLUTELY BEEN DEAD IN 10 SECONDS. A Jg Pz and a 183 would've put 2 shells into me and I'd be dead. I see this all the time, watching Droodles too. And I'm not saying these 2 aren't great players...but it just seems damn odd to me that if I try doing what they do a LOT (the same maps, similar/possibly same tanks) I end up DEAD.

I know one thing. I have been a gamer for decades. I've played MANY types of games, many online and multiplayer games. And I've experienced "cheating" in several games, like players using hacks or bots whatever. I have NEVER felt THIS kind of manipulation with any other game, that yeah, FUNDAMENTALLY, there is something f***** up going on.

[EL_Din_46]

Publicado originalmente por anytime:

...This pattern leads me to believe that something along the lines of the following. Per battle, a player is assigned an "accuracy modifier". When WG wants a player to win, the player modifier is closer to 0 and increased as WG wants a player to more or less lose.

BTW for any doubters about such things as this...look at how WG buffs tanks. When tanks aren't played, or don't win, they are INCREMENTALLY BUFFED. When tanks are too strong, they are INCREMENTALLY DEBUFFED. Why would it be any different for players? We are just cattle to manage in their game.
...

I don't think any one of us is that important on the scale that game companies operate. Individual staff members may play the game themselves and sympathize with us, but to the bean counters we are just numbers. I'm not El Din 46, I'm just #1035200398; faceless, easily replaced and unimportant. (How's that for cynicism?).

____

TLDR SECTION -- EASILY SKIPPED

It's more of a volume operation with options within the game that players can choose for themselves. Wargaming's goal, like other game companies, is to attact a large volume of downloads, have some of those players continue for a while and make an occaisonal purchase, and convert some of those into hobbyists who play frequently and make regular purchases. As long as the numbers in each group are large enough there's no need to manipulate the individuals battles.*

Volume: There's been over 150 million downloads. There are usually around 2 million players during each update, with each group becoming smaller (BlitzAnalysiz.com). Once WG gets us near their store the challenge is to keep a large number interested so we keep coming back.

Buffs: Each year there are meta changes where entire tiers are rebalanced. Although there are individual tanks that aren't working well (and need to be rebalanced), I don't see any other reason for the tier wide rebalances than combating boredom.

Game modes: Pick the one you want to play. Ratings for SBMM, tournaments for the competitors. fun modes for those who don't care about WR. General managerThaine Lyman said, during the last Gamescon, that fun modes are the most popular - and now we have them 24/7.

Fantasy/Realism: During the recent Tankfest, Lyman said that fantasy outsells realism 3 to 1. And so we now have StarTrek, Warhammer, Dracula tanks. Look at pictures of real tanks. You rarely see camo, it's one color for everybody. Tan for deserts, white for snow, shades of brown and grey for everything else. In real life warpaints cost money and time, in games they make money. That's why I have dozens of camo's in my storage.

[BellatorMonk]

"I don't think any one of us is that important on the scale that game companies operate. Individual staff members may play the game themselves and sympathize with us, but to the bean counters we are just numbers. I'm not El Din 46, I'm just #1035200398; faceless, easily replaced and unimportant. (How's that for cynicism?)."

This is the argument to counter "rigging" all the time though El Din!! Every time it has to be explained it has nothing to do with "your" named account. It's numbers..if ANY ACCOUNT manages to win/lose say 5 games in a row then what is being claimed is that the system modifies the RNG/MM weight of that account NOT because of YOU a human with feelings and political beliefs etc. It's the numbers in the "columns" being monitored and adjusted on the fly by an algorithm.

No one sane ever argued that some Developer went into the code and biased the numbers against their individual account to make them lose or win. I have heard this excuse to swat down the discussion of the THE SYSTEM being rigged from day one as if that makes any actual sane sense.

I've heard that crap from Crusader 6 and his band of merry sycophants for years as they censored or banned people like Twitter and CNN for daring to argue the point of LOGIC.

The reason for 40%ers and 60%ers is because even when 40%ers are thrown the MM and RNG bone they still blow that advantage by simply being bad at the game and igmoring the patterns, 60%ers actually see the patterns and know when the bone has been taken away and play much more carefully to try and secure that win.

40%ers will keep playing the game after 10 losses in a row and yolo even harder in defiance and keep dying in 60 secs or less. 60%ers will log out after 3 losses in a row and play at another point to let the MM and RNG "reset" or as I said, play even more careful, pick shots, focus low HP targets etc.

When I start a match and I see RNG allow an magic hit and pen on me in the first 30 secs..I KNOW I will not get away with peeking while someone is looking at me so I will actually wait and play way more carefully.

If I bounce 5 shots from the reds in a row..then I know I have godmode engaged and play far more aggressively.

Patterns...

[anytime]

I have tried logging out for 3 minutes, 30 minutes, 3 hours, "the day". And it never seemed to make a difference when I get hit with...whatever terrible team MM mode. And I think that's part of "the fun". It's not just being purposely matched with bad team mates. It might be RNG/Ghost Shells/etc.

But the times where I've had 3 losses in a row, mostly due to terrible teams, I have found NOTHING but continuing to I guess "play through" the tough times knowing at some point I'll get a win and then the losing stuff will start all over again.

It's definitely, 100% certain, that this isn't all just truly "random". MM is not "random".

I played 7 rating battles today. It was a "good day". My team won 4 battles, and the 3 losses I got "best of the worst increase". 3 of the battles, at least 1 player on my team did ZERO damage. In one battle, there were 2 players who did ZERO damage, one player was AFK. In all 7 battles, on the enemy team, NO ONE SCORED ZERO. THIS IS WHAT SEE COMMONLY.

A few weeks ago, I had the same AFK player on my team 3 battles in a row, IIRC they were rating battles. The first 2 battles they were in a 60TP. The 3rd battle they were in a Maus. LOL RANDOM!

[EL_Din_46]

Publicado originalmente por BellatorMonk:

This is the argument to counter "rigging" all the time though El Din!! Every time it has to be explained it has nothing to do with "your" named account. It's numbers..if ANY ACCOUNT manages to win/lose say 5 games in a row then what is being claimed is that the system modifies the RNG/MM weight of that account NOT because of YOU a human with feelings and political beliefs etc. It's the numbers in the "columns" being monitored and adjusted on the fly by an algorithm.
...

It's not that they are picking on you, they aren't picking on anyone. There just isn't any money to be made by stressing out the servers by operating at that level.

Where they make their money is by getting people to go past their store, same as a retail business in a busy shopping mall or someone picking the busiest online store to put their products into.

Keeping people interested and engaged will do that. Giving them losses or afk players will frustrate them, cause them to take a break or leave the game. There's enough of that happening anyway as a side effect of gettng is willing to try the game and maybe spend a little money.

Anyway, you might find this interesting:

https://youtu.be/xNjI03CGkb4?si=oU24Wa4TTidMW7BD

[BellatorMonk]

"It's not that they are picking on you, they aren't picking on anyone. There just isn't any money to be made by stressing out the servers by operating at that level."

You are still trying to nullify the argument by saying no one person is being zeroed in on for "rigging" when we are saying it's EVERYONE which in actuality is what you are saying without actually admitting or saying it.

As for "server stress". I have seen you say this before and again it makes zero sense. Stress on what? Are you trying to say the CPU/RAM of their servers can't handle some perceived strain or load because of how much more complex an algorithm would be to "rig" RNG/MM related to account(s) performance?

Do you have any technical knowledge to even begin to make such a statement?

Let's boil this down..you either believe the system is and can be "rigged" or you don't. The reasons no longer matter...just the simple yes you believe or no you don't.

[EL_Din_46]

I don't have that level of technical knowledge, but the developers have mentioned that soften the MM requirements as a temporary measure when the servers are overloaded, and then add additonal blades for a more permanent solution (if needed). That's a good example of a business simplifying their operations as a way to decrease costs and increase profits. I think it is highly likely that WG would do that with MM in general - it's the kind of thing successful businesses do.

But your comment about belief is absolutely true. Belief statements are not statements of fact, but simply saying "it's rigged" appears to be a statement of fact. Once that distinction is made there's no point in arguing beliefs.

[anytime]

Publicado originalmente por EL_Din_46:

I don't have that level of technical knowledge, but the developers have mentioned that soften the MM requirements as a temporary measure when the servers are overloaded, and then add additonal blades for a more permanent solution (if needed). That's a good example of a business simplifying their operations as a way to decrease costs and increase profits. I think it is highly likely that WG would do that with MM in general - it's the kind of thing successful businesses do.

But your comment about belief is absolutely true. Belief statements are not statements of fact, but simply saying "it's rigged" appears to be a statement of fact. Once that distinction is made there's no point in arguing beliefs.

And that's the exact thing you don't get. They don't need "more blades" because of hosting battles. Hosting a battle server in this game? a 486 could do that. They need more blades because of the amount of data collection they are performing.

WG is most definitely on the "heavily marketed" hype train. They use words like random and "server blades" and tell you only about 5% of the truth. They can say "MM is random" from a certain point of view when it is NOT random at all. El Din, you don't understand what "random" means. Even if tankers are stacked into battles in the exact way they queued, that is NOT RANDOM. And believe me, WG knows every tankers patterns for while they are logged into a game. The know how often you queue, what tanks you will likely play, etc, probably stuff that would blow my mind like "why would they care about that?", let along yours.

[BellatorMonk]

"I don't have that level of technical knowledge, but the developers have mentioned that soften the MM requirements as a temporary measure when the servers are overloaded, and then add additonal blades for a more permanent solution (if needed). That's a good example of a business simplifying their operations as a way to decrease costs and increase profits. I think it is highly likely that WG would do that with MM in general - it's the kind of thing successful businesses do."

What are you even talking about in relation to the topic? Soften the MM requirements? You mean they use algorithms to make matches form faster by changing the usual and standard MM requirements to pair teams up?
Do you see what you are even saying? You are saying the same thing people who claim WG CAN RIG the MM with ALGORITHMS on the fly.

The PURPOSE of it doesn't matter..the fact THEY CAN and ADMIT to it is the very proof people who claim MM and RNG can and are rigged in some fashion.

Overloaded servers? What does that have to do with the price of tea in China or in this case..."rigging' the MM and RNG?

Costs and profit...? Again...what does that have to do with anything being discussed in this thread?

Seriously El Din do you never ever stop talking in circles and deviate from the utter and constant defense of WG's obvious practice of manipulating the MM and RNG as they see fit?

Here is a tid bit for you that you have forgotten or not seen. WG has also posted in the past that they KNOW players get bored with to many wins or losses in a row and strive to make winning/losing too many matches in a "challenging" so they stay logged in and playing as a BUSINESS PRACTICE.

Now how do you think they do that? With "randomness"?

This is one of the main reasons 60%ers log out after 3 losses in a row...for exactly that statement from WG.

I swear it's like watching the news say a certain political candidate "fell off the stage" instead of the FACT that he survived an assassination attempt.

[Jackie Daytona]

I normally reply in a bunch of quotes. I'm just gonna skip that this time.

The game is what it is. If you feel it is rigged? And you cannot be dissuaded? Just stop. Best possible solution. Otherwise you are simply going to be angry about the game forever.

I regained my enjoyment by playing less. I don't try to complete all the dailies. I don't chase after the passes. I don't care about modes, missions, or tiers.

All I do is play until I get irritated or annoyed. Then I logout.
----------------
But maybe I need to put this another way? I'll pretend it is rigged, for a moment.

I logout after losing several. I login days later and win several. Perhaps because they are trying to get me to keep playing?

After all, they do provide incredible -90% deals on premium and gold when I haven't played for months.

[anytime]

Publicado originalmente por BellatorMonk:

"I don't have that level of technical knowledge, but the developers have mentioned that soften the MM requirements as a temporary measure when the servers are overloaded, and then add additonal blades for a more permanent solution (if needed). That's a good example of a business simplifying their operations as a way to decrease costs and increase profits. I think it is highly likely that WG would do that with MM in general - it's the kind of thing successful businesses do."

What are you even talking about in relation to the topic? Soften the MM requirements? You mean they use algorithms to make matches form faster by changing the usual and standard MM requirements to pair teams up?
Do you see what you are even saying? You are saying the same thing people who claim WG CAN RIG the MM with ALGORITHMS on the fly.

The PURPOSE of it doesn't matter..the fact THEY CAN and ADMIT to it is the very proof people who claim MM and RNG can and are rigged in some fashion.

Overloaded servers? What does that have to do with the price of tea in China or in this case..."rigging' the MM and RNG?

Costs and profit...? Again...what does that have to do with anything being discussed in this thread?

Seriously El Din do you never ever stop talking in circles and deviate from the utter and constant defense of WG's obvious practice of manipulating the MM and RNG as they see fit?

Here is a tid bit for you that you have forgotten or not seen. WG has also posted in the past that they KNOW players get bored with to many wins or losses in a row and strive to make winning/losing too many matches in a "challenging" so they stay logged in and playing as a BUSINESS PRACTICE.

Now how do you think they do that? With "randomness"?

This is one of the main reasons 60%ers log out after 3 losses in a row...for exactly that statement from WG.

I swear it's like watching the news say a certain political candidate "fell off the stage" instead of the FACT that he survived an assassination attempt.

You have been posting some fire. Very informative. And here's the thing about this. IMO, WG can claim "Match Maker is random" SIMPLY by not knowing which individual players a person will be matched with. IE, It's not like BellatorMonk queues for a battle, he is only matched with certain players. Under that scenario of "random" anything else goes. Win/loss/play styles/tank types etc. And I doubt there's probably an legal recourse about marketing claims and games (you KNOW everything they state is lawyered up).

I just had this happen today, and today was a good day for me, 17 games and 5 losses. BUT as soon as I put in a 5x with boosters I got 2 trash teams in a row, and then the 3rd battle I won. That is something I notice ALL THE TIME, it's ate least 75% of the time. It almost makes 5x worthless to me because it takes me 3 f...ing battles just to claim it.