Do Aidios even exist? [spoiler, also mostly speculation]

[HoboForEternity]

be warned that i haven't played crossbell or erebonia games, so i might be utterly, utterly wrong about stuff i write here.

the thing about the series is, i feel like it is actually more science fiction-ish than your ordinary fantasy. it is more like a play on clarke's third law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." there are alot of mysterious stuff that happens and artifacts that defy explanation, but if you are familiar with alot of sci-fi tropes, you can find an explanation in almost every one of them, how they work consistently within the universe's rules and stuff.

i can say that aidios are invented by zemurian to give some sort of control to the masses (which i now kinda doubt because celeste still pray for aidios in alot of her dialogue)

but there is also a possibility that aidios is real, but man-made. my theory is zemurian has reached the apex of technology and have achieved technological singularity. like most human civilization, they invent stuff to make life better and their ultimate product is Aidios. maybe aidios is a giant, sentient superintelligent AI network complete with the equipment to create stuff (think of atomic level 3D printer complete with the ability to manipulate trail's world 7 basic elements) that it is basically a god. almost omnipotent and omniscient. using the AI's amazing computational power they designed the artifacts, the sept-terrions and all these artifacts. in the SC, aureole behave like a superintelligent computer that has network connecting all of liberl ark and have the abilty to manipulate space (and creating phantasma as its computing subsystem). in the bigger picture, aureole is just one part of Aidios that represent the space element in the trails world.

as the technology become accepted people of zemuria just accepted Aidios as this universal helper and more or less a goddess.

the fall of zemuria is basically a technological singularity. the AI(dios) [heh, i actually made a weird connection in Aidios' name itself] basically keep learning and learning and become too good at its job and it backfired and became a threat to humanity.

(footnote: alot of scientists fear of AI is that it will become too good to do its job and eventually will do its job without regard of enviromental and human safety. if you create a robot that is designed to make cupcakes and it is capable of learning and improving itself, it will eventually become so good, that it can turn any material into cupcakes by manipulating matter in sub atomic level. it will harvest ingredients for cupcakes. its order is to make cupcakes, so there is nothing stopping the cupcake-bot making an unstoppable army of itself and start harvesting the ground, water, animals and human's matter to make more cupcake. it will basically turn earth into cupcakes. this is the threat that alot of people like bill gates, elon musk, stephen hawking fear with learning AI. they won't turn evil and want to revenge or rule on humanity, but they just become so good at their job that we human aren't important anymore to them)

and in the last resort to save humanity, the leaders of zemuria dismantled it all and threw them back into the dark ages. the church is then created by one of several of these leaders to both recover the scattered dangerous artifacts. alot of myths and legends about aidios is invented to keep the real one in secret, so people wont find it and abuse it. hell, maybe ouroboros stem from people who know the truth and aim to bring back the wonders of zemuria civilzation instead of letting the current world advance on its own pace.

the advanced control of time/space/mirage and other elements isn't that much impossible too in this world because of sepith. if the current level of civilization have orbments, that can manipulate those elements freely, what can a much more advanced civilization do?

think of orbments as an equal to vacuum tube computers in our world back in early - mid 1900's. it is a beginning of a technology, relatively weak and will improve over the years. skip to 2017. now we have smartphones that have computing power equal to several building's worth of vacuum tube computer.

imagine that is a case with the trails world. orbments has only existed for a several decade, yet it is already able to control the elements in such a way that it can do magical stuff. skip several hundred years of technological advancement, and compare it with out vacuum tube computer and smartphones. now a supercomputer that can manipulate matter isn't that much impossible right?

that is pretty much what i thought about the background lore of zemuria and the artifacts, and as i stated i havent played the other games in the series, so i might 1000% off the rails. i just like speculating, and if you have spoilers about coldsteel/crosbell, be sure to mark is because this is trails forum and alot of people are like me who are done with sky, but haven't played anything else.

thanks!

[AH-1 Cobra]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Dark:

It's pretty heavily suggested that the grandmaster is Aidios, though that has yet to be confirmed. You know the grandmaster is female, has the power of the divergent laws (which can control all sept-terrions), and her closest confidants who voluntarily swear loyalty to her are beings of all kinds of crazy backgrounds: Thieves, saints, vampires, scientists, witches, divine blades, heretics, and probably more (dragons, spirits, demons, etc.).

Unless you're referencing one of the non-localized games, Ouroboros doesn't have a "divine blade" among them. Assuming you're referencing a master of 8 leaves school. Although Cassius did kinda say that if he got too involved then he would have to deal with somebody specific, referenced as a "him". There is somebody in Ouroboros that even Cassius doesn't want to screw with.

[Lame Lothar]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Ghaleon:

I'm no expert, but uhh I think his star door mentioned studying them didn't it? Plus didn't Joshua mention that his 'evil eye' spell was obtained via studying Astarte (who should be a hotty btw, not some grotesque thing, jeeeze).

(SPOILER chapter 4 (or 5 maybe)) Indeed, Joshua said it was the original spell and that Weissmann developed a weaker version based on Astarte's spell. So the demons in Phantasma were illusions but true demons exist or at least that's what I understood.

Also, a vampire Anguis would be great, haha.

[Domi]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von crimsonedge11:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Dark:

It's pretty heavily suggested that the grandmaster is Aidios, though that has yet to be confirmed. You know the grandmaster is female, has the power of the divergent laws (which can control all sept-terrions), and her closest confidants who voluntarily swear loyalty to her are beings of all kinds of crazy backgrounds: Thieves, saints, vampires, scientists, witches, divine blades, heretics, and probably more (dragons, spirits, demons, etc.).

Unless you're referencing one of the non-localized games, Ouroboros doesn't have a "divine blade" among them. Assuming you're referencing a master of 8 leaves school. Although Cassius did kinda say that if he got too involved then he would have to deal with somebody specific, referenced as a "him". There is somebody in Ouroboros that even Cassius doesn't want to screw with.

I think I know who this person is, though. When does he say that? Maybe they'll have to update the translation.

[AH-1 Cobra]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Domi:

I think I know who this person is, though. When does he say that? Maybe they'll have to update the translation.

I think it was some time during SC. But Cassius gives some sorta reason for not getting more involved in the situation, that involved something along the lines of getting someone else involved.

Also it's possible that Cassius wasn't referencing Ouroboros members at all, because there is some backstory that suggested that Erebonia has Cassius on the highest possible threat level, and him getting more involved in the Liber Ark situation might have meant that Erebonia would have overreacted, and then he's probably referencing Chancellor Osborne getting more involved if Cassius took a lead role in this. So he took a step back in order to placate the Erebonians.

[Dark]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Lame Lothar:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Ghaleon:

I'm no expert, but uhh I think his star door mentioned studying them didn't it? Plus didn't Joshua mention that his 'evil eye' spell was obtained via studying Astarte (who should be a hotty btw, not some grotesque thing, jeeeze).

Also, a vampire Anguis would be great, haha.

One of the ongoing theories is that Rose, the main character depicted in the books "Red Moon Rose" from CS1, is in fact Arianhrod. A true ancestor vampire, in fact. The books have always been ground in truth and hidden important details here and there. Along with a few other things that explain her mysteriousness: The mysterious death and disappearance of Lianne Sandlot at the end of a the war 200 years prior (vampires don't age, she's still alive), a direct reference to Vlad Tepes (the impaler) Dracula in Akatsuki as one of her weapons, and various other conversations in passing in CS and Ao. Who knows.

[Lame Lothar]

Wow, good theory. I hope it's true.

[tej]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von crimsonedge11:

Yeah, I think it's more likely the grandmaster is an adversary of Aidios (a similar type of being) than Aidios herself. But nothing has really hinted at Ouroboros (as a group) being inherently evil. So it wouldn't surprise me if there was some sorta plot twist where they're actually the good guys.

That would be a horrible plot twist. Good people/societies don't take advantage of vulnerable children.

From what I've played, I don't see hints that Aidios is the Grandmaster. Are these hints laid out in Japanese only media?

[Hat8]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von tej:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von crimsonedge11:

Yeah, I think it's more likely the grandmaster is an adversary of Aidios (a similar type of being) than Aidios herself. But nothing has really hinted at Ouroboros (as a group) being inherently evil. So it wouldn't surprise me if there was some sorta plot twist where they're actually the good guys.

That would be a horrible plot twist. Good people/societies don't take advantage of vulnerable children.

Both Ouroboros and the church do this so I guess neither of them must be good.

[Oguzhan]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von crimsonedge11:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Domi:

I think I know who this person is, though. When does he say that? Maybe they'll have to update the translation.

I think it was some time during SC. But Cassius gives some sorta reason for not getting more involved in the situation, that involved something along the lines of getting someone else involved.

Also it's possible that Cassius wasn't referencing Ouroboros members at all, because there is some backstory that suggested that Erebonia has Cassius on the highest possible threat level, and him getting more involved in the Liber Ark situation might have meant that Erebonia would have overreacted, and then he's probably referencing Chancellor Osborne getting more involved if Cassius took a lead role in this. So he took a step back in order to placate the Erebonians.

It can be anyone really. Cassius is really famous and sometimes that fame gets in your way.
Like I am 100% sure that when Weissman ordered the enforcers to attack to castle to capture the queen , his real goal was to reveal Cassius's ace in the hole which did work. Neither Cassius or that ace was able to venture to the final area because of it. Everyone is cautious when it comes to Cassius and he knows this so he makes his moves carefully.

[Kyle G]

Between preventing a coup, making sure relations between Erebonia and Liberl are good, and keeping a watchful eye out for a giant shady organization, Cassius sure has a lot on his hands.

[tej]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von crimsonedge11:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Domi:

I think I know who this person is, though. When does he say that? Maybe they'll have to update the translation.

I think it was some time during SC. But Cassius gives some sorta reason for not getting more involved in the situation, that involved something along the lines of getting someone else involved.

Also it's possible that Cassius wasn't referencing Ouroboros members at all, because there is some backstory that suggested that Erebonia has Cassius on the highest possible threat level, and him getting more involved in the Liber Ark situation might have meant that Erebonia would have overreacted, and then he's probably referencing Chancellor Osborne getting more involved if Cassius took a lead role in this. So he took a step back in order to placate the Erebonians.

Are you referring to right around when the dragon shows up? Cassius says something to the effect of, "Maybe I should... no, it would just be the same thing all over again."

To the point about the church taking advantage of vulnerable children, does that come up in 3rd? I haven't actually started it yet, I was planning on replaying SC before 3rd came out but life got in the way. I'm almost done and will be starting 3rd soon.

I'm not saying that the Septian Church is a perfect organization or full of noble heroes or whatever, only that it will take quite a bit to convince me that Ouroborous are actually the good guys. The most benevolent group in any of the games (I've played) is the Bracer Guild and they are always adamantly opposed to what Ouroborous is doing. Estelle is kind of held up as the example of simple, unfettered goodness and it wouldn't sit well with me to have her be on the wrong side of the fight while the group that allows it leaders to psychologically manipulate emotionally scarred and abused children, turning them into murderers, is somehow good.

[Kyle G]

I hope Aidios is a really sexy lady.

[MindfulOcean]

I apologize for bringing this thread back up to the front page, but I just finished the game and felt like weighing in on the overal story. I've played all three Sky games and the first two Cold Steel games. I agree that the fantasy elements we see in the Trails series might turn out to be advanced science in disguise.

The fact that Celeste refers to the goddess as being a goddess rather than a machine, AI, or person doesn't really discredit the idea that she could be any of those things. Celeste lived at the absolute technological peak of ancient Zemuria (when the world had the Sept-terrions) and its obvious through her dialog that there were a ton of unsolved mysteries back then like the structure of Zemurian Ore, which to my mind implies they may not have understood artifacts all that well either. Even to an advanced society, a thing capable of gifting treasures like the Sept-terrions would appear godlike, especially if the entity in question presented itself as a god. No one--not even Kevin--asks about faith or religion, so we have no idea what ancient people thought of Aidios or what their relationship with her was like.

I'd like to address some of the things people bring up to support the idea that Aidios is a goddess and magic is real:

1. Dragons, monsters, and other "magical" creatures. These could either exist naturally or have been created during an unknown era of history. Modern Zemurians know almost nothing about the civilization that died out a little over a thousand years ealier, so it isn't implausible to think there was once a mega-civilization in the world with ultra-advanced technology in the distant past.

2. The existence of magic. As far as I am aware, there are two kinds of magic in the Trails universe---magic that can only be performed by special people, and magic done using septium or special objects like artifacts. I’ll consider the first kind here. If we used a time machine to transport someone from the preindustrial era to a modern smart home, they would think everything in the home was magical, that the voice assistant was a spirit or demon, and the person controlling the home with their voice was casting a spell. There is no need for the magic we see to be real magic in the fantasy sense.

3. The existence of arts and septium. Basic refining of septium into quartz seems to take little scientific knowledge or skill once you happen on the idea(everything looks like the late 1800s from our world if you take away the orbments) and yet once you get started working with it, advances come very rapidly with comparatively little effort (consider how fast technology moves between games compared to how it worked in our world). Quartz also has two interesting properties: they recharge their energy over time (limitless clean energy) and they allow for the convenient use of arts (which look like magic…). The practical applications include things like making objects float (airships) and beam weapons. Extremely easy to use, allows for “magic”, is clean and efficient, and is practically ready-made for solving practical problems. Yeah, that kind of sounds like an artificial material to me. Especially if Aidios made the continent like the Testaments claim.

I’ll be the first to admit that the series might really be pure fantasy and that I’m seeing things that aren’t there. But here are some things that push me toward the science fiction hypothesis.

1. The Aureole and the phantasm. Celeste explains that the phantasm is a subsystem of the Aureole that it created to help process wishes. Wait, what? A magical, divine treasure has subsystems (and therefore some type of internal structure) and needs processing power? That sounds like a machine. If you recall the notes from SC that Celeste left behind, the Aureole grew as they used it, and eventually decided it was necessary for it to exist and fought back violently against her group’s attempts to get rid of it (to say nothing of reading minds to find out what they were doing). That sounds like a rouge AI, not magic.

2. The artifacts, which are supposed to be gifts from the goddess, seem odd. As of the end of the 3rd, we’ve seen five artifacts: the Cube, the Fool’s Locket, the Spear of Loa, the Chrono Rod, and the Salt Pale. Considering my criticism of the phantasm, the Cube could be viewed as an emergency hatch in case something goes wrong with the phantasm (and it did!). A locket that makes people believe almost any lie you tell them seems like something a human would invent for his own gain, not a special treasure from a god. The Spear of Loa is much the same (how is turning someone into a monster a “gift”?). Next up is the Rod, which I admit could go either way. As for the last artifact…Weissman claimed that all of civilization collapsed because of the Sept-terrions, and the Salt Pale gives us a glimpse at what appears to be another cataclysmic horror. It might be that the Salt Pale was sent from the goddess and didn’t exist prior to the events in North Ambria, but I feel it makes much more sense to view it as something ancient poking its head out---a gift from the Sept-terrion of water, perhaps? All of the treasures seem like things humans would create for themselves given the power to do so rather than gifts from a goddess.

3. Stigmas and other super powers don’t seem divine in the least. I expected that the most powerful members of the church might have actual divine abilities, but no: Kevin got his Stigma due to childhood trauma and when it manifested, it was like a force of nature, not something controlled or divine. Moreover, Weissman’s research proved you could artificially carve a Stigma into someone and give them similar powers. Members of Ouroboros are said to be given power by the Grandmaster, and there is nothing to suggest any sort of god needs to be involved. As for the exact mechanism behind these things, refer to my criticism of magic in general.